MOTU 896 HD Woes
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Posted on Sep 12, 2005 03:25 pm
Sirrus
Prince of Cat Ears
Member Since: Jun 17, 2004
I posted a while back about a "clicking" and distortion issue I encountered during playback on this device while doing something as simple as typing. Well, after following the advice given then and finding a few other encounters with the same, I'm about at the end of my rope with MOTU. Their tech support could only suggest reformatting to wipe the drivers from my M-Audio Firewire 410.
Anyway, I've adjusted IRQ interrupts on my hardware, reformatted, downgraded the firewire drivers to those from Service Pack 1 (apparently, those in 2 limit bandwidth to 100 kbps), and disabled DEP within Windows. The latter two are supposed to completely eliminate the problem according to one post I found on another forum.
Needless to say, none of that worked. I'm about to install a PCI firewire/USB 2.0 card, but failing any success with that, I'm going back to the M-Audio and probably e-baying the MOTU as I do enjoy listening to music while writing and the like.
Now, if I go this route (and any other suggestions as to fixes would be appreciated), I was wondering if I could utilize with the 410 something I had heard suggested with the 896. There is a Behringer device (I'd need to dig about to find the model, etc) that offers 8 digital mic preamps for something like 270 and has optical outs that can allegedly be used with the 896 to sync up additional inputs. Is it at all possible I could do that to expand what the 410 is capable of handling simultaneously (it has optical in and out)?
Any thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated. I'm about ready to go mac or protools at this point...even if the latter threatens my wallet with a heartattack.
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jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Sep 13, 2005 06:45 am It's a shame you can't get the MOTU going cleanly on your machine - they are good sounding when they run good... I've never heard of SP2 limiting bandwidth. Perhaps that's with certain controllers? How would they do that anyway, what with Firewire being a "spec"? What's its "normal" bandwidth, anyway? You say you re-formatted, as per MOTU support, and it still doesn't work right? Did anyone suggest PCI Latency Tool? Perhaps your video card or a SATA chip is taking up too much of your computer's bandwidth on the PCI bus? A separate Firewire card may well work better than one on the motherboard, but make it a "quality" one...
The Behringer device you're alluding to is the ADA 8000, an 8 channel pre-amp that uses ADAT light pipe. It "only" does 48kHz, but is usually found for around $230 in stores. It is a low-cost solution, IF, IF, you've got an interface with ADAT, not just "optical in & out". S/PDIF also uses optical, and the connectors are the same, but the protocol is very different. For a quick glance, the only M-Audio with ADAT is the 1814 firewire. The Echo Layla 3G has it, the EMU 1212M, 1820 & 1820M, and 1616 & 1616M (cardbus), along with a few others.
My computer is a 1.4gHz Athlon, and is borderline for most firewire interfaces, and below spec for some, so I was left with the PCI choice, and I wanted ADAT, of which, with my budget at the time, left me with the 3G or the 1820M. I chose the EMU 'cause it went on sale the week of my decision. It was a rocky road after the first driver update, but it's been great ever since. BUT, as you've found, the best interfaces are STILL very finicky of what they play with in a computer, and having a "spec" system does NOT gaurentee satisfactory results. It just lowers the odds of failure...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Sep 13, 2005 05:01 pm I've actually been through two PCI latency tools. The setup I've been running has been to set all devices to 64. If I'm horribly misusing the util, do let me know - but I haven't had much luck even changing the symptom with it.
To be perfectly honestly, I'm still absolutely blown away that the conflict is between a firewire device and a keyboard run in through the normal keyboard port - no wireless USB or other nonsense to fight with. I honestly haven't read of anybody else encountering an issue like that.
Incidentally, what is the overall standard for "quality" in firewire cards? I picked up a USB/Firewire combo card from Alliance Computers (local to PA - no idea if they're elsewhere) for about 25 that just seemed a hell of a lot better than the $60-$70 Circuit City options (a plain firewire card from there didn't fix anything). I have yet to install it, but again, it's pretty much the last thing I've tried aside from switching to mac (ah, if only we could trade in...).
As for the firewire limitation - the sp2 drivers supposedly limit bandwidth on firewire devices to 100 kbps as opposed to the present standard for 400 (or 800 as I understand is on the way).
I guess my final question would be - how would one damage control a situation like this if I'm absolutely unable to fix my problem with the MOTU? I was considering e-baying it, but it doesn't help with the desire to ultimately have a setup I can expand on. Clearly I could use the 410 as a substitute, but I'll eventually hit a ceiling and need to move on (hence why I got the MOTU in the first place). As such, any suggestions?
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Sep 13, 2005 05:29 pm Well, you've got an Athlon now... Perhaps a new motherboard/processor/memory upgrade and go with the Gigabyte or MSI 64, socket 939? They're getting rave reviews, but I'm uncertain as to whether that'd fix your MOTU woes, or compound them...
As for the PCI Latency tools, your vid card usually needs 128+-, a PCI audio face 64+, and the IDE and SATA somewhere in that area, also. Some manufacturers have any onboard NIC up in the 128 area, which is un-necessary, unless you like uninterrupted web, and trash all else. If you never noticed a change, tho, that's not the problem... Do you have SATA? You don't have wireless anything (keyboard, mouse)? How about the video card? Onboard or add-in? What is it? MOTU hasn't got any help for you, other than the re-format?
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Sep 13, 2005 09:15 pm I have Serial ATA, but none of my drives are on it, so it's just latent in the motherboard as far as I'm aware. Everything else is tied in (the mouse is USB) through the usual ports - no wireless surprises or anything like that.
MOTU tech support was just really vague. I was told I'd not need to take any steps to get their hardware working...well, hate to break it to them, but their hardware can't handle winamp. I'm not even going to attempt recording with that. I'll break out the 4 track - it'll sound like arse, but at least I'll have a fair idea as to where the signal is going and that it'll get there.
Oh, though the MOTU man (sounds catchier) did suggest steering away from Service Pack 1. Good luck with that in any event.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Sep 13, 2005 09:23 pm There's a MOTU dedicated board (not associated with MOTU corp), but I can't find the shtinken link (why does this not surprise me?)... Do a google and see if you can find it. Be prepared with your entire computer "pedigree" (and I mean IRQ assignments, etc.) when you post, and be prepared for the "You should have known" comments, but they'll get you going, if possible... Perhaps it is a MOTU board off the MOTU site?... aha:
www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/index.php
it's "not affiliated with MOTU" blah blah blah, but it is linked to off their site...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Sep 22, 2005 01:21 pm I really appreciate the link. I've started a thread on there (need more specific machine info than I can muster at work) and already gotten "schooled" with regard to "You tried to use a pro device for WHAT??!!!"
To be honest, the reality check was a good thing. If nothing else, it may be a little more inconvenient, but switching between two devices (maybe even the Firewire 410) for my "consumer" level apps and then to the MOTU for the "pro" apps would be the way to go. I'm going to hit them with more specific stats and see if there might be a way to get everything to pan out.
I have to say, I'm very disappointed with MOTU tech support and the Guitar Center where I bought the thing. You get a very distinct impression that MOTU's PC support is..lacking, if we wanted to be PG about it - and worse, that the sales reps don't really care to inform the customer about it. Ah well, live and learn right?
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Sep 22, 2005 06:16 pm They can be rather harsh on some of the "professional" boards, can't they? I still want a MOTU, tho... and an RME... Money... new car... new house... lol... right.
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Sep 23, 2005 09:35 am Harsh, but it seems like they might know some stuff about how to get these things working. I'd browse the hardware forum on the board you linked me to. Seems MOTU support is really the pits AND there are issues like mine that are pretty widespread.
I mean, I was hoping to get a powerful sound device with the added perks of good conversion and preamps...turns out maybe it's a little more specialized than that.
Nov 10, 2005 06:32 am try this....for the motu guy.... i have same problem. didnt try it yet am at my work now
firewire under sp2 get switched to 100mbps instead of 400 or 800
microsoft has a fix for it
support.microsoft.com/kb/885222
i hope it works!
good luck
Nov 11, 2005 04:51 am for the motu problem and firewire under SP2
well.... tested the 885222 hotfix from microsoft... doesnt work! so u have to replace firewiredrivers from service pack 2 with the ones from sp1 as described here on RME page:
www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/fw800sp2.htm
IM BACK IN THE GAME!
Nov 11, 2005 04:53 am oh and if u dont have the sp1.cab file just get the files out of drivers.cab (check date! 2001-2002)
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Nov 12, 2005 05:22 pm I've gone the length of trying the different fixes (Microsoft and the patch file just containing SP1 FW drivers) and found there to be little difference.
I've been absent for a while courtesy of some energy drain associated with a new job. One fortunate point of this new job is that it's at a computer retail/repair shop. I just scored a new Socket A motherboard with a non-Via chipset I can throw in.
That'll probably be tonight's project. I'll report on its success should there be any. ^_^;;
Dec 07, 2005 08:32 pm Ah yes, a critical problem for me too. I am the sad owner of 2 -896's (not HD's). You name it, IRQ's set fine, registry edits done, SP2 uninstalled, SP1 reinstalled, then SP@ reinstalled and only SP! drivers switched, Have done everything that I could find Googling for the last 3 weeks. No luck. Running Cubase SX3 on a Athlon 1700+ , and Athlon 2800+ 64 bit running with Win Xp Pro 32 bit ( great box by the way) but not with a MOTU, Funny thing is 1 year ago I had them running fine individually on a different Athlon 1700+ with SD ram but could never get them do daisey chain snyc.(like the MOTU manual says to) So I've never had the the full 16 channels ever synct up. Naturally bamboozling my recording fervor and undermining the very reason I purchased them anyways....sound familiar ! Unfortunately that motherboard + power supply fried up.
. Exactly what my problem is this: When I minimize or resize any open program page, both collectively, individually, rewired, text, music, whatever. Its a slow 40 sec. hailstorm of clicks and pops. And trust me Sirrus, Jopie, jmail and all, I have tried every single thing you guys have mentioned and visited all the links provided in this thread Anymore findings ?!?I'm at my witts-end with these things, Oh Yeah, MOTU tech support has 0% value. If one of you gets a chance,email me. I've got to make these I/O's work.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Dec 12, 2005 04:37 pm www.motu.com/techsupport/...?searchterm=896
Also, on the MOTU site, they *still* say not to install SP2 because of what it does to firewire. Supposedly, someone has a "fix" (RME, DigiDesign?). Probably, the thing to do, is take your strongest computer (the 2800+), go into the BIOS and disable all onboard ports, including parallel, serial, USB & Firewire. Disable any onboard sound and game ports. Keep the NIC for internetting for just a bit. Remove all other PCI cards. Wipe your hard drives and re-install WinXP, update to SP1. Download and install all your motherboard drivers and video card drivers. Download the latest MOTU drivers (and audio software) and save them to the hard drive somewhere. Remove the drives for the NIC and disable it in the BIOS, or remove the card. Re-boot so Windows clears it out of its registry. Go to
www.musicxp.net/
and do what you can from their site. Get yourself a quality firewire add-in PCI card. Firewire only, no USB! Be sure it's a Texas Instruments or a Lucent chipset. NOT firewire 800... Next, install ONE 896 and see if it will work any better. Install your audio software and update from the previously saved files. Then try the 2nd 896. Be sure you've gone potty before you start...
Dec 13, 2005 09:29 am I was considering blitzing the whole box like you suggested but I didn't want to committ till I had a few responses. I just just get sick of trashing C: after c: drive full of installs, you know... I'll give it a shot and post my results. I'm pretty sure this will work. Thanks for the response.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Dec 13, 2005 06:16 pm I hear ya. I re-did my box four times, just for an EMU 1820M - but it works great now... fingers crossed.
Dec 15, 2005 01:00 pm Well, It didn't work. I uninstalled Firewire adapter, controller, formatted harddrive, reinstalled XP Pro with SP1 only, reinstalled Cubase SX3. Every single unused port/function was disabled in BIOS, even AGP direct instead of PCI seek ( to more directly allocate and save an IRQ ). Increased paging file and toggled memory allocation from "background services" to "programs" and back after 1st test. At that point I began checking audio against each upgrade or new installby importing a CD track to whatever program. Cubase SX3 is my main recording platform. After installing it and no upgrade, while magnifying the track view length and demagnifying it, I still got the sync drop-outs but a little less severe. The next 2 updates didn't help either. Also, when minimizing the screen, the entire audio just stops, then on maximization, it starts back up but still with magnification / demagnification issue. So I thought, why not screw things up worse while I'm sneezing coffee grounds at the screen and install ACID 5.0. Same issue with track magnification, but when minimizing and maximization the program while music plays, no sync drop. So overall , things are about 30% better. My last call with Steinberg was a treat. I had to explain things about 8 times to their tech support who insisted on taking me on the full ride for every single new attempt. FYI, since these computers were 1st built, both firewire cards were Texas Instruments compatable and OHCI compliant and are FIREWIRE ONLY cards with 3 plug sockets per. Remember, I have used both computers to record WHILE SP2 was installed and had NO problems. I used the Athlon 2800+ to record a 2 song demo for a local band and it ran 8 simultaneous tracks @ 24/96 flawlessly . All editing ran smooth and everything, that was 8 months ago with all current updates, including SP@ ! ! ! Also, Direct X was updated just in case there was DX plug-in conflict, No dice. Any Suggestions, this is the strangest, relentless, problem that has ever afflicted my system to date ?! ?? Should I format again and ossibly not use the updated set-up files for MOTU and use the 1st relaesed on my factory CD's ?! ??!!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 15, 2005 10:11 pm Kind of a late thought here, but could there be a hardware/cable issue instead of software or driver related? Just grasping here now since you have been through the entire software routine.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Dec 17, 2005 01:02 pm For sure, Noize. Check your firewire cables. Be sure they're 6-pin. What brand of firewire card are you using? You mention card"S" - only put one in the computer and get ONE motu going before you try more... The "piggybacking" is another issue entirely...
You don't really mention much about your hardware, but the PCI buss utiliztion can play a *BIG* part in a firewire interface's functioning cleanly or not at all. Run PCI Latency Tool or Double Dawg and see if you don't have a video card or SATA controller way up there, especially video cards. Some of them set themselves up as "king" at 255 cycles versus most other gear being at 32 or 64. Set the video at 128. Put the firewire card at 64. Also, speaking of the firewire card: it's not good enough to be "Texas Instruments compatible"... It *must* be a Texas Instruments or Lucent chip set. MUST MUST MUST. The Adaptec line and I think it's SIIG use TI chip sets. Be sure what you have. VIA chip sets are OK, but dey ain't TI or Lucent!...
Dec 21, 2005 03:05 pm Jmail, The 1700+ has TI chips on the firewire card and MOTU tech reccommended the ADS TECH Pyro PCI 64 card,especially for 64-bit machines running the Old 896's so I put one in the 2800+. FYI, all these attempts never got to level of daisey chaining for 16 channels. Just 1 896 per computer. I had tried 2 different PCI Latency patches with no luck on either box. Then I used DoubleDawg like you suggested (set video to 128), and it took care 90% of the problems. Thank you. DD never did recognize the firewire cards, even with MOTU's powered up. and...let it be known that the AGP to PCI bus relation (at least with Athlons)is an akward one! The 2800+ has no PCI video card but the 1700+ does. When i switched the video card from 1700+ to 2800+, the unlock occured naturally on the 2800+ without even running DD. So, I presume that running DD must not really unlock the bus, but actually the card itself. Another strangeness is DD is supposed to be run every time after you start the computer unless you donate $10 to the shareware plan, mine recognized previous settings anyways without the need to rerun. Just as long as I had the PCI video card. Also, not once did the DD notice either firewire card. Since the 2800+ has onboard 256, I didn't want to buy a card if not necesary. I mean, this is audio,not video prod. right !$$$> I have read that some people have used PCI modems and had the unlock occur w/o a PCI latency tool ?!? Not me. I tried 3-4 various other cards/modems etc. No luck. Currently, the min/max screen problem is gone with 98% of sync dropouts history. The only piece of software that still operates atypical is Cubase SX3. When I minimize the project window it still plays fine, but when I minimize the entire program, all audio turns off. Funny thing is when I minimize ANY program, even MS Word, while Cbase SX3open and running, All audio Stops and freezes everything for 15-30 sec. Oh well, can't win 'em all. I'll ofcourse be speaking with Steiny soon to iron out the problems with that. Jmail, I notice you had a 60 GB harddrive in your hardware profile.. by any chance an IBM Deskstar ? Just curious, I have 2 and one went bad under warraty. IBM took my Credit card info. as collateral for their faulty drive return policy and never followed through with the repalcement. Once again, thanks fellas.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Dec 21, 2005 07:09 pm Naw, my "DeathStar" died several months ago, less than 2 weeks after it exited its warranty period... lolol. IBM sold their hard drive division to Hitachi, I believe it is... Now there is a "firmware fix" out there for the old IBM drives... For some strange reason tho (tic), I can't get the hard drive to recognize it... must have something to do with the fact that the computer won't recognize the hard drive as being a hard drive...|;^) I've had 3 hard drive failures in my life, all within the last 3 years. Not good odds for "modern" technology... One IBM (the most catostropic) one Maxtor (the most irritating - & 2 days after "warranty"...) and one Quantum Fireball (what'd I expect?). My current 60 gig is a Seagate. I've also got a 80 gig WD.
Anyway, if you can find PCI Latency Tool on a "friendly" site, it is "freeware" (I think...). I have discovered where is will not run on my P3 with Intel 810 graphics... hmmm...
I ran into that trouble with Cubase VST and it's got to do with "Releasing the ASIO driver" or some other such. I can't remember where that setting is found... When Cubase loses the "focus", it "releases" the sound card, which may or may not be a desirable trait...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Jan 24, 2006 12:47 pm I'll be perfectly honest and admit that my HD has never been tested with a full 8 channel feed before. All the same, my initial problems were solved when I switched from an Abit motherboard to an MSI motherboard. The former utilized a VIA chipset while the latter had nVidia.
I know it's a pain (been there), but a new motherboard with a better chipset (if you can still find a decent Socket A model out there) might solve your problem.
Feb 19, 2009 01:26 am Was just researching the 896HD, thinking of buying a used one... noticed you seem to be having problems similar to what I used to have. I didn't read everything above, so someone may have already said these...
The first one no-one put anywhere, maybe because it's painfully obvious or something, but this was the first issue I encountered: disable networking over the 1394 connection. Go into network connections and make sure the 1394 connection is disabled. (You may need to disable wireless connections too, many people recommend disabling them all, but I run just fine with 16 tracks and my LAN up) - also make sure that your firewalls are not set up to filter traffic over 1394. Don't know if it matters if you have disabled the connection, but better safe than sorry.
And the other obscure thing that finally fixed my problems (the above combined with like 7 other things made it less frequent, but I still had problems until this):
DPC Latency
Something about hardware drivers demanding the attention of the OS or something like that, bad driver software can cause problems. To see if you are having dpc latency problems, download dpclat.exe (just google it, first link) If you have red spikes, that's probably the source of the clicks and beeps. You can use a tool called RATTV3 to try and pinpoint the driver(s) that is causing the problems. But it's really technical to use. You can also just disable stuff in the device manager and watch it to see what happens. The thing is there are some things you wouldn't disable when you are trying this. I went through and disabled a bunch of stuff I wasn't using and still had problems, but after using RATTV3, I found out that it was a driver for my battery controller, which caused massive DPC latency every few seconds even when my laptop was plugged in. With it disabled, I couldn't see a meter for how much battery life I had, but other than that the computer works fine and it fixed all my problems. I also disabled printer drivers, built in sound cards, wireless network card, etc to further lower my dpc latency just in case, but just disabling that one driver fixed my problems.
Hope this helps. When I finally discovered this I was so relieved.
