Dec 28, 2004 02:14 pm 8 sub outs? service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear a few people here use them and love them.
Mixing board question
Posted on Dec 28, 2004 02:12 pm
ZX6R1033
Perdido
Member Since: Dec 15, 2004
I am looking for a mixing board that can record 8 channels at a time. 7 mics for the drum kit and 1 for a guitar. The boards I have been looking at are 4 mono and 4 stereo inputs (Behringer UB1202) My question is this... the plugs for stereo say mono capable, which means I have the 8 Mono inputs I need... But, at that point, are the remaining 4 channels unusable?
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Dec 28, 2004 02:14 pm 8 sub outs? service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear a few people here use them and love them.
Dec 28, 2004 02:20 pm That link sent me to the Behringer Eurodesk 9000 ($1,300) I am trying to accomplish this on a minimal budget.
also, Maybe dont understand what Sub-outs are. I was under the impression that the UB1202 had 12 inputs (4 stereo, 4 mono)...and 1 set of stereo outputs that I would be using to run the mixing board into the computer. What are sub-outs?
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear
Dec 28, 2004 02:25 pm Well, I read your post assuming you want to record 8 tracks, meaning you want each of the eight microphone recorded on it's own track, individually, in which case, you need an output for each track to keep them separated. Then, of course you need a sound card that has 8 inputs.
If you just want to mix the eight into a stereo mix and record that, then you just need a mixer with eight mono inputs with mic jacks (or 7 with mic jacks/preamps anyway) in which case your best bet (meaning cheapest) is service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear
Sub-outs are descrete outputs to keep some channels seperated from the others so you can record each mic on it's own track.
Dec 28, 2004 02:36 pm lol, sorry. Beginners tend to have a technically deficient vocabulary. So, the UB1202 has the correct number of Mono inputs needed... Now on to the first question asked... When all 8 mono inputs are being used, are the remaining 4 inputs usless?
Dec 28, 2004 02:39 pm for you to use the "stereo channels" you would be essentially using half of those channels, so yes, the other half of those four would be wasted. However, you couldn't use them anyway, as those do not have microphone preamps, so the sound would be sucky. You need 8 channels with mic inputs/preamps, like the one I mentioned above. (the second one)
Dec 28, 2004 02:44 pm The way it works on a mixer like that is you pan the 4 stereo inputs to place the mono signal where you want it. The mono input signal is propagated to the stereo pair of each stereo input. So if you want a complete mono signal to record, you would pan Hard Left or Right.
Dan
Dec 28, 2004 02:54 pm Got it... so even with a dynamic mic (or condensor, since I havent figured that one out yet either) you still need a preamp? I know that my final input (guitar) doesnt need a preamp, as I will be running that through a Behringer V-amp. but, that also means I would probably be running it into the board as a stereo input, if my understanding is correct.
Dec 28, 2004 02:57 pm You can run the Vamp mono if you want, but yes, all mics need preamping.
Dec 29, 2004 08:50 am OK... one more question along the same lines.
When I am recording by myself... I only need 7 Mono tracks.. But when I am recording with others, I need roughly 10-12 tracks. I have been looking at PCI boards for the computer, and mixers, and am only left with one question. If I only need an 8 track mixing board for most of the recording, and the sound card is capable of 4 tracks (2 left 2 right channel) then... whats to stop me from buying two smaller mixers and running my drums independently from the other instruments? this would be half the cost of the larger mixing boards, and allow me to adjust the volume, pan, effects, exc. of the drums seperatly from the other instruments.
To further attempt to explain what I am trying to say... When I record on my own, every instrument will be recorded on its own track.. when I am playing with others I have the option of buying a big mixer and recording everything on the same track, or buy 2 smaller mixers (saving about half the money) and record on two tracks simultaniously. (sorry for the bad spelling) Is my train of thought correct here, or is there a reason I have not heard of anyone else doing this?
Dec 29, 2004 08:57 am Having two smaller board will surely do the job, but is totally inconvenient. If you want to run an aux loop with a compressor for example, you would need two so you could use it on both boards, you would then need to mix the two mixers to get the monitors to play the signal from both mixers.
Convenience of tracking and routing weighs heavily in favor of a signal board. and a 4-bus board (allowing you to use a 4 input card) isn't that expensive either.
All in all, for saving a few bucks (maybe) you will ultimately kick yourself in the *** if you go a two mixer route, what a pain that would be.
In my humble opinion.
Dec 29, 2004 09:41 am I was actually in hopes (if i went the two mixer route) of being able to have one single mixer for just the drums. No effects, compressors, or such.
I know I am completely cheaping out here, but, the price difference between the two pieces I was looking at are Behringer UB1202 - $78.00 x 2 For a total of $156 OR Yamaha MG16/4 for $276.
The other thing I am weighing in here is... When it is just me, I will only be using 1 UB1202... and the only other person that ever plays with me, comes up (from 3 states away) for a grand total of MAYBE 3 days out of the whole year. is that 3 days worth the extra $120... or would it be easier for me to deal with the aggrovation of setting 2 mixers up?
The reason I am counting pennies is that I have no intention of mixing a demo CD, or trying to make money from the studio in any way, shape or form. Simply put, I have fun making music, and I want to be able to hear my songs complete.. with all instruments, exc exc exc. I am basically just looking for a way to get the job done.
Also, regardless of which route I go with the mixers, I am going to be looking for a 4-input sound card... (not familier with the correct terminology) do you have any suggestions for anything?
Dec 29, 2004 09:48 am OK, well, back to the problem I brought up earlier, the 1202 still won't do what you need, it only has 4 mono input with mic preamps. The others are not preamped, so you would additionally need preamps for the mics using those channels to get the signal to line level. I think you just have to accept one of two senarios. Either that the 1202 simply will not do what you asked by itself, or that you can cut down the number of mics on your drums.
Unless you have a large drum kid, 4 mics should be able to do a decent hobby-quality job of capturing the sound. It's a very common arrangement for standard kits. With four mics, the 1202 will do what you need for the drums alone, then, depending how you choose to record other instruments, it may even do the job for adding those too.
The most popular 4 input card around here is service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear the m_audio delta 44. Good card, reasonably priced.
Dec 29, 2004 10:00 am Thank you for the suggestion on the sound card.
I was talking with a guy at the local music shop about micing drums last night after the first half of this thread... and he told me that you only need to preamp condensor mics. I am still quite confused by different mic scenerios, as I am new at this. So, needless to say, I am just kind of taking everything in and attempting my best at understanding it. I know you said both types of mics need preamps, but with that statement set aside, the reason I returned to the UB1202 was that this guy told me dynamic mics do not need preamps. The mic kit I would be using is comprised of 5 Dynamic mics and only 2 condensor mics. Perhaps there is something I have overlooked that I should read on this site or any others that gives an exact comparison of the two styles of mics?
As for the amount of mics I have been talking about using, this is to avoid some problems in recording that I see comming a mile away. I am using a Sabian B8 20" ride that has a tendancy to drown out ALL other drums while playing, and needs to be turned down about half volume. The snare, toms, and crash are perfect. The Bass drum is almost non-existant, and the Hats are slightly lower than I would like. In order to turn the bass and hats up, the ride down, and keep all others balanced as they are, how many mics would you recommend? I am sure that what I am talking about is overkill, and I am trying my best to learn. The idea I had was to mic the drums all individually, and use two overhead mics for the symbals.
(I realize this thread is turning very quickly away from the topic at hand, and for that, I apologize)
Dec 29, 2004 10:11 am Well, I disagree with the sales guy, as his main goal is to sell you something. But, if you wanna go the 1202 route, go ahead, good luck with it. Condensors are the only ones that need phantom power, but preamps, well, I disagree completely with him on that.
If your ride drowns everything out like that, it's gonna be a problem regardless of your mic setup unless you put that cymbal in another room (unlikely unless you have a very long arm with several elbows :-) As you can turn down that mic but it will just bleed in to the others anyway.
I would go the 4 mic route and try it, one in the kick, one on the snare/hat and two set over the toms spread equally between them to catch the toms and cymbals. The ride you might be able to lighten up a little with some clever EQing and minimizing some key frequencies.
Dec 29, 2004 10:19 am You only need phantom power to condensor mics. Both condensor and dynamic need pre-amping to bring the mic level signal up to line level.
IIRC, mic level = ~.1volt, line level = ~1 volt.
I use the MG16/4 with good results, utilizing the channel inserts to bring the pre-amped signal out of the board and into the soundcard (1010lt). It works very well for me. I can see that if you would want to use a compressor, you couldn't add one to each channel, but you could through the aux send/receive.
Dec 29, 2004 10:19 am Yeah, I read your article on Micing the drum kit. That ride symbal REALLY bothers me though.
Phamtom power is different from preamping. I just caught on to that. What is the difference between the two? This is where the majority of my confusion comes in on this whole thing. Also, what is my best bet for a mixing board without spending a lot of money? From the way you are talking, it sounds like I cant do what I need to with the 1202.
Dec 29, 2004 10:24 am no prob pjk, glad to have someone else on this convo :-)
Phantom power pwers the mic to make it work at all, like a battery, preamping just adds to the power of the signal to bring it up to line level to sound decent.
Step one would be finding a new sales person to talk to ;-)
I still think if you want 4 out, the Behringer UB2442 is your best best.
Dec 29, 2004 10:30 am New salesman? Im getting better results talking to you! I nominate you as my new salesman.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with me. I am sure that I will have more questions as I go, and I look forward to talking with you again.
pjk.. thank you as well.
Dec 29, 2004 10:32 am hehehe, glad to hear that! I humbly accept the nomination :-)
We are here for ya. Good luck in your quest, I look forward to seeing your progress.
Dec 29, 2004 12:44 pm Another question has come up... New salesman.
I have been looking over the specs on a couple of different Behringer models, and have found two of them to be the same as far as I can see. The UB2442FX-Pro and the UB2222FX-Pro. Both have 8 mono inputs and 4 stereo inputs, two of which are IMP. I see no major difference. I was hoping you could clear this up?
Dec 29, 2004 12:49 pm Biiiiiiig difference, the 2442 has 4 subgroup outputs, the 2222 has 2.
The subgroup outputs, if I was setting up your system would run in to the 4 inputs of your sound card, the main outs would then go to your amp/speakers.
Then, each channels has little assignment buttons in which to set which outputs it goes to, you click the buttons of the subgroup you want that channel to go out, which will in turn send it to an input of your sound card.
So, subgroups 1,2,3 and 4 will go to inputs 1,2,3 and 4 of your sound card. Plug the kick drum mic into channel x (whatever channel) then on the assignment button, click it to go out of subgroup 1, it will then go into input 1 of your sound card.
make sense?
With the 2222 you only have 2 subgroups.
Dec 29, 2004 01:03 pm So with 4 sub groups, you can control exactly which channel of which track you want to record each instrument on while playing simultaniously? I thought that the mixer mixed everything so it recorded to your computer in 2-channel mono.
So in effect... what you are telling me is that with the 2442, I have the exact same ability of seperating the instruments as I would with two mixers, and could assign which instrument records to each track with the push of a button/flip of the switch?
HOLY CRAP!!!
what else should I be looking at when comparing the two?
Dec 29, 2004 01:12 pm other than the extra subgroups, they look pretty much the same.
Let's clarify something:
A "channel" is a strip on a mixer
A "track" is a recording on a tape, or software app.
A "subgroup" is a collection of channels (any number) assigned to a specific output other than the main out.
So, you can assign one or more channels of your mixer to different subgroup outputs, which will each go to it's own input of your sound card and be recorded into it's own track on your computer.
So, hypothetically you have these channels:
1- kick
2- snare/hat
3- left tom mic
4- right tom mic
5- lead guitar
6- rhythm guitar
7- bass guitar
8- vocals
You could then assign all the drums to subgroup 1, the guitars to subgroup 2, bass to 3 and vocals to 4. Then, record your song as 4 individual tracks and mix accordingly.
Or, set up outputs 1 and 2 as a stereo pair, use all your drum mics and pan into a stereo image and put all the drums out of those two and record it to a stereo track...
lots of options, subgroups rock.
Dec 29, 2004 01:13 pm Be aware, many times sub groups ARE in stereo pairs, so, to get something to just sub 1, you need to press the 1/2 assign button and pan the channel to the left for group one or right from group 2...or center to come out both...or any amount in between for a stereo image...
Dec 29, 2004 01:32 pm OK.. last question for the time being... If I am going to be using one single mixer... Given the fact that 99% of the time spent recording will be by myself, Would I actually need a sound card with 4 inputs? Let me ask the same question a different way... If I am the only one recording, that means I only have the ability to record 1 track at a time... would subgroups still be benificial? if so, how?
By the way.. thanks for the clafification on terms.
Dec 29, 2004 01:41 pm I record by myself and use subgroups...er, more accurately, subgroup.
That way I can ship the sub out to the sound card in, the then put the sound card out to one of the stereo input channels and assign that to go out JUST the main outs, then send the mains to the speakers.
www.homerecordingconnecti...tory&id=132 is how mine is set up.
But no, by yourself a simpler card is possible to use, mine is a simple ESI Juli@ two ins and two outs. But if you need the 4 once, you'll need it.
Dec 29, 2004 01:46 pm OK... just called the local shop... got a price of $289... what type of plugs do I need on the sound card? I started off by assuming (stupidly) that they would be RCA's but have since realized that I couldnt be further from the truth. I know (or think I do anyway) that the plugs will have to be four of the same type.
Dec 29, 2004 03:48 pm just to kick the tires on the other side of the car . . .
[quote]
I am looking for a mixing board that can record 8 channels at a time.
[/quote]
if you mix channels together on the mixer, then those signals are forever recorded together. I'm inclined to think you'd be better suited sending each channel to a recording track individually. This is what I do using channel inserts. Channel inserts can be used like a sub out for each channel. Then the signals are all in the PC seperately, then I can draw pan envelopes and volume envelopes on each seperately for much better control. I find being able to adjust each signal's volume throughout the song very beneficial.
[quote]
So with 4 sub groups, you can control exactly which channel of which track you want to record each instrument on while playing simultaniously? I thought that the mixer mixed everything so it recorded to your computer in 2-channel mono.
[/quote]
yes and no, if you record each channel to one sub out, then all four will be seperate. If you mix, say, three drum signals to subgroup 1, then they'll all be on the same track in the computer.
using a 8 preamp board (like the mg16/4 or similar) and a 8 or 10 channel recording card, this will keep all the signals seperate if you record 8 inputs at once.
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