Headphone amp question
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Posted on Nov 02, 2002 05:33 pm
MW
Member Since: Nov 02, 2002
Hi,
I have some very basic recording experience, but am still fairly new to all of this. I hope someone can help me out.
I play in a four piece band (drums, bass, guitar, vocals) looking to practice using headphones at certain times of day (neighbors and all...). Anyway, we would like to have individual control over our mixes, not just overall volume, but, for example, so that the singer could turn down the guitar in his headphones only, while turning himself up (of course), and the guitarist could do the opposite. Our drummer has a nice set of Roland electronic drums, the bass player has a Bass POD pro, and if we can't run direct out from the guitar head we've got a Behringer V-amp.
I've been told to look at the Furman hds6, but it doesn't look like it has the inputs we would need. Would a Shure Auxpander work? Or do we need a console to run that? We really just want to keep the four instruments on separate channels the whole time, right up until they go to the four individual headphone mixes.
Thanks for any help anyone can provide!
Mark
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zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 02, 2002 05:52 pm You're going to need a mixing board to do that... one that will have 4 sub mixs...I think you can use Aux. channels too... Basically you would run it like a PA monitoring system for live shows... I don't think the headphones will need to be amps as the boards should boost it enough. Get ready to spend about $500-$1000 though. I would recommend checking out a used instrument store like Music Go Round... I picked up a Peavy 24channel 4 sub 6 aux board for $700 with stand...
The bad thing is that you will have to isolate your instruments... because changes in volume can color the sound.
The good thing is that it's fairly easy to record your practices...
MWMember
Since: Nov 02, 2002
Nov 03, 2002 03:46 pm Cool, thanks for the quick response. I did some looking online. Do you think the Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro would work? Here is a link to it:
www.planetdj.com/expanded...p;IMAGE_EXIST=Y
It says it has 4 subgroups, so that sounds promising. Do you know anything about the board? It seems pretty inexpensive.
Thanks again,
Mark
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am Actually, yes, that would work another place to get it would be Musician's Friend service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear it look like it costs the same tho. (but buying from MF helps support our little community)
Also keep in mind you will need a seperate channel input for each set of phones as well, or a separate headphone amp for each bus out.
I have the UB1622FX-Pro and it is a great board. Nice effects, clear and power preamps...it rocks.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 03, 2002 04:19 pm "• 4 subgroups with separate outputs for added routing flexibility "
that would do it.
One other thing being that this is for prectice monitor mixs...
If you practice with monitor mixs then you're probably going to need to perform with monitor mixs...So when you get to the point of playing shows (even if you already do) it is a good idea to setup pracrice like a stage and not the circle with amps facing everyone which is how most startuip bands practice. ..and check to see if the place you are playing at has monitor s and how many mixs they can send...most "real venues" (ie bars) will only send one monitor mix...most amature places won't even know you need to mic the drums...or anything else for that matter let alone have monitors. Plus monitors will cut in and out and burst into flames while you're playing.
...so be sure you don't rely on monitor mix.
...and be sure to keep your stage presence in check (ie where you stand faceing what direction when)...if you have to look at someone all the time ..you're wrong :)
Nov 03, 2002 05:15 pm Quote:
it is a good idea to setup pracrice like a stage and not the circle with amps facing everyone
Oh, I disagree, set up the practice space however is the most comfortable and the best use of space. Some practice spaces are not very big. The practice space is the best place to set up non-verbal communication between bandmates...the wink of an eye, the position of a guitar, etc.
Not that that is the main topic of this thread, or that I think zek is wrong, I just feel very differently. The practice space and the stage are two very different forums with two very different purposes and should be treated as such...in my opinion...
MWMember
Since: Nov 02, 2002
Nov 03, 2002 07:10 pm You guys RULE! Thanks so much for your help. I will order through your link to Musician's Friend for sure.
I hope I can ask you guys one more question without being too much of a pain. I just want to be sure I don't spend too much of my band's money (we're pretty broke).
If I run a separate sub mix through each of the four sub mix outputs on the Behringer, I guess you are saying that I would need to hook either a channel input (not sure what that is) or a headphone amp to that output, and then the headphones up to those. Do you have any inexpensive recommendations? I guess we would need to buy four of whatever we choose (amps or inputs) to keep our four mixes separate. Thanks again VERY much.
Mark
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 03, 2002 09:06 pm "The practice space and the stage are two very different forums with two very different purposes and should be treated as such...in my opinion..."
...trying to aviod one of the long opinion threads that don't mean anything... :)
I sort of agree. I feel most communication is done during "songwriting" which happens to usually look a lot like practice. I feel a lot of bad habbits can be avoided by practicing the way you perform.
..it doesn't really matter how you practice...just don't have your back to the audience when you play and don't make your drummer dependent on seeing your fingers for timing. :)
Nov 04, 2002 01:43 pm what are sub mixes / sub groups???
Nov 04, 2002 06:32 pm Quote:
[/i]I feel most communication is done during "songwriting"[/i]
I guess that depends on how you perform. Any band I have been in (or any band that really did anything anyway) communicated A LOT on stage as songs were "written" and yes, much communication is there as well, but on stage solos got changed, dynamics get changed, the guitarist has a bug up his butt to decrichendo (sp?) at some point and stuff like that.
If you don't do stuff like that to keep it loose, fun and interesting I tend to get really bored really fast, as will people that go from show to show watching you if every song is always the same, each solo is the same, etc.
For some music styles that kind of thing works, but to me, good hard rock/rock music need to be changed and improvised on the fly to suit the audience and the crowd at the moment, as well as the people playing it.
That, my friends, is where on stage, non-verbal communication is made into a fine art, and it is something that is hard to achieve unless you have been playign with the same people for a long time and it comes naturally.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 04, 2002 06:53 pm A sub mix is what you run through your stage monitor when playing live (I'm sure there is a use for recording too) So the Audience gets the mix from the main out (please make it mono unless you really know what you're doing :) ) And then The Vocalist gets his own mix and the bassest his and the drummer his, etc etc. They are mainly used for reference and have to be kept at a "low" volume...I think 25Db less than mains or else the audience will hear it mix into the sound from the mains and feed back and other nasty stuff...
So you don't have to look at the other people on the stage for cues :)
My old band played hardcore/metal and we did use limited visual cues but only if we could make it look like it was part of the show.
example: Our show started with a song that began with a bass solo and drums (me) doing crossovers on two crash cymbols. We figured it would "ruin the moment" if I clicked us in. So as we were all ready he would look strait up for a moment (as if in prayer) and then he would fall into a hunch so his bass is about 3 inchs off the ground ...a lot like a full body directors cue :)
It was VERY effective in building up suspense
Most other difficult transitions were led in with a solo and typically were to hard and fast and had to many harmonies to allow for any improv that required a reaction from the band. The fun came from the energy we could apply from knowing exactly (almost) what was going to happen, when.
The stage presence basics we used were
1. Everyone had a Zone: If the left to right visual makeup of the stage wen't something like this
Bassest------vox/rythem infront of drummer-----lead
then the basses would NEVER be next to the lead in his wandering during a show etc. because controlling wandering drastically reduces the chance a cable will be unplgged or someone will trip. Also, say the poepl at the front of the stage are actually in front of the bassest...and then he wanders over to the lead...now they don't have anything to look at :P Essentially "If you wander ...so will the audiences attention."
2. Fretboards face center ... the finger action is one of the cool things to watch at a show. people should almost always be able to see it. Ever see a video of a show and during the guitar solo the camera is on the bassests fret board? Sickening isn't it? Just like when you never see a drummer on camera during a drumsolo :)
3. NEVER ever EVER have your back to the audience. Face it...people don't like looking at your butt :) Usually if people are turned around then they are fiddeling with their amp settings in which case the sound man should jump out of his booth and kill that person...
4. ...and no matter what happens...atleast look like you know what you're doing...
...plus we practiced 20 hours a week... :)
...granted...we broke up because the vox/rythem had a nervous break down... but it was worth the sheer awe at which people would stare at use when we played :)
Nov 04, 2002 08:27 pm yup, you are talking about exactly what I am, full-body cues...only any band I was in would wander...all over the place, but then when you use wireless you have less of a problem with it in regards to unplugging cords and stuff.
Many ytimes we would us audible cues such as "a snare drum roll here means the solo is rapping up" or "this particular riff means change to the bridge in 4 measures" and stuff like that, but many times the full body cues can be cool...if, like you say, it works into the theatrics.
But hey, everybody does it differently...and my band broke up cuz the guitarist girlfriend was a drunked idiot that just always made trouble, and somehow managed to always find our gigs :-(
But we are really off topic here...
And often when I go to shows I like seeing interaction between the bandmates, smiling, laughing and having fun...it adds to the vibe...for me anyway...
Nov 04, 2002 10:36 pm wow, all of that sounds so exciting. I can't wait until I get out to do my first gig. So far all party's and family get-togethers have gone great :O) but strangers? hehe i am so shy. -j
Nov 05, 2002 12:53 am shows would be fun.. sometimes its just not practical (as in my case). i would like to at some point, but theres not enough musicians interested in my style of music here. nor the scene to support it.
oh well. at least i can record what i want. =)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 05, 2002 05:17 pm You would do well up here in Minneapolis. Most of the underground club's and even some of the bigger dance oriented venue's are getting into some far reaching stuff. You would fit right in with the trance club scene up here, as they tend to lean toward the new and differant. My oldest son (21) just brought me a tape of a new artist that wants to come to the studio and he has some very interesting stuff.
Nov 05, 2002 05:28 pm Yup, Minneapolis has a very good and very diverse, music scene. Great clubs with lots of formats...good stuff, move up here :-)
Nov 06, 2002 03:25 am man, y'all are so lucky. there's *no* scene of any kind here. a few underground rappers here and there, a little blues and country, that's about it. politics and police have all but eliminated the metal/punk scene these past couple years. all the good clubs have been shut down or moved away for fear of being closed. it will all come back, but not for a few years. these things take time to heal.
Nov 06, 2002 05:09 am A few metal bars and such have been closed down here as well, but only the stupid ones that did stupid stuff like sell to minors, allow open drug use, didn't monitor their parking lot for fights so they had stabbings, shootings and crap like that, which, regardless of any personal opinion on the subjects is illegal, so they kinda deserved to get shut down.
Generally if a club is descrete, follows basic laws and protects itself it can thrive out here...
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Nov 06, 2002 06:30 am Houston has a good scene as far as bands coming in, (for example I just saw GWAR, Legendary Pink Dots, seeing Thrill Kill Kult thursday and Cruxshadows next month) but I can't find anyone to make my crazy goth music with. It kind of sucks. heh. But yeah, my old band used to use non verbal communication all the time... like my bassist and i had known each other for years, so he knew that if I started to sway back and forth that the music was going to get heavy. Only problem is we always had a fill in drummer who never knew what was going on.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 06, 2002 07:46 pm Ya, the most diverse club up here is 1st Ave and it's underground sister 7th Street Entry are owned by the purple one (Prince) and they have every imaginable type of music in one or the other place. And I do mean everything! Then there is the Rave scene which is huge up here. Any open wharehouse on any given weekend will be used on moment's notice.
tonyd1970The fat one always watches us.Member
Since: Nov 08, 2002
Nov 08, 2002 09:01 am Mars music is going under and selling inventory. if you have one near you, it might be worth checking out. (i know we are supposed to use musicians friend but.....) also you could check out musicians friend!
Dec 19, 2002 09:38 am This thread got a little off topic, but I would like to speak to the original topic if I may. First of all I believe Mark was asking for each player to be able to control his own mix, i.e. be able to adjust the volume of each instrument in his own cans. I don't think you can do that with that with the Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro. I know you can select which channels will go to each buss, but I don't think you can control the indvidual channel volumes seperately for each buss. If I were them I would look into each guy getting his own little mixer, something like the Eurorack MX-602a six channel mixer. Those can be had for $60 each at Musician's Friend. Then all you need to do is get a four-way splitter for each instrument and send the signals to each guys mixer. He can then adjust his own mix to suit. These mixers have their own Phones output. So for $240 they can outfit all four guys with their own personal headphone mixer. Much cheaper than the UB2442FX-pro and will do what he was asking for.
Blessings, Terry
