Dec 03, 2003 11:38 am balanced are better because you can either use them as unbalanced (noisier) or balanced.
Balanced vs. Unbalanced inputs
Posted on Dec 03, 2003 10:21 am
scrump775
Member Since: Aug 30, 2003
I am looking at a M Audio Firewire 410, 2 xlr inputs, 2 unbalanced inputs. 10 outs. Are the unbalanced inputs more prone to noise/distortion/interference than balanced? Will I lose quality?
What is the best way to mic drums, 2 overhead stereo mics and a snare and kick, then rerecord with toms only? I'd rather not spend over twice the amount for 8 ins. I have a beringer mixer, 8 inputs that I can mix thru. Should I try to get the toms from the overhead but as I add eq to the cymbals and overall ambiance of the kit-this will probably detract from what I want the toms to sound like.........Thanks Mark
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Dec 03, 2003 11:38 am balanced are better because you can either use them as unbalanced (noisier) or balanced.
Dec 03, 2003 12:13 pm Balanced cords and plugs are less seceptable to noise per physical nature, however as Minkus mentions you can use unbalanced cords with balanced ins and outs. If you happen to be in an area with little stray signal present you will be fine. As far as drums; Your choice. Base your miking on whatever you or the drumer finds easier per performance issues. You may be able to get by with just miking the kick and using overheads, depending on what you need in your mix.
Dec 04, 2003 12:55 pm Walt, define "stray signal" for me please....
Thanks...
Dec 04, 2003 12:57 pm Uuuummmmm, a signal that is stray...I know that sounds like a smart a$$ answer, but think about it, it's signals just flying around in the air...
Dec 04, 2003 05:54 pm Yes, indeed. The stray signals they are talking about means any thing that might induce noise into your signal. This si more common when using longer cords fo say 15' or more. If you are not running anyof your mic or guitar cables around any other electrical paths you should be fine. You just want to keep any cords away from anything elecrtical like your PC moniter, an amplifier, TVs and so on. It is just common practice to keep audio signal paths away from anything that will induce a stray signal.
Dec 04, 2003 06:53 pm Thanks Noize, and for dB, that is a wise a$$ answer. dB, the reason I asked is because of the word signal. RF energy is present in many forms, from a cordless telephone, to a computer (thanks Noize again) to my cellphone in the same room. The question was, (better worded this time) are balanced vs. unbalanced less suceptable? Will these types of signals "flying around the room" more likely intrude into unbalanced lines or not? dB, Mr Administrator, how about leading by example-the old adage goes like this, if you don't have anything good to say......(I'll modify it) don't waste my time and yours. I come to this forum as a newbie and would rather not be turned off by the "old salts". I very much value and appreciate the information I glean from this site, and I recognize there is much done behind the scenes, so I don't take it for granted. Thanks for all the work and good advice.
Dec 04, 2003 08:19 pm Excuse you? "Lead by example", "if you don't have anything good to say". WTF? I answered your question quickly and correctly...within TWO minutes I might add...
Let me humbly apologize for wasting your time with a speedy, accurate answer, I won't let it happen again.
Dec 04, 2003 08:58 pm Ok dB,
Do me a favor, no more answers at all please if they are always going to be "speedy and accurate" as the last one was. Pardon me for being a newbie. It took you "two minutes" to dream up that answer? Do me a favor and leave my posts alone or just kick me off the site........
Dec 04, 2003 09:46 pm (chukles to self)I'm going to go grab some popcorn.
Dec 04, 2003 09:55 pm Scrump,
I'm pretty much a newbie too when it comes to recording techniques, but I am a fairly seasoned H/W geek so I'll try to answer this one.
Inputs to audio equipment respond to a difference in voltage. Infact the term voltage has no meaning unless it is in reference to something, ie you need at least 2 wires. In an unbalanced line you have exactly 2 wires: a center conductor and a shield (also referred to as tip & sleeve on a 1/4" connector). The shields (sleeve) on 1/4" jacks are almost always tied either directly or indirectly to the chassis of the box they connect-to. So if you have box 1 with an unbalanced output cabled up to box 2 with an unbalanced input, box 2 (which could be an amp, recorder, etc) will amplify or record the difference between the center conductor (tip) output from box 1 and the shield. The problem comes when you have the chassis of box 1 at a different voltage than the chassis of box 2. This causes current to flow thru the shield from box 1 to box 2 (this is called a ground loop). What makes this even worse is when the voltage difference between box 1 & box 2 is AC (which it typically is). This is commonly caused by the ground pin on the 2 AC power sockets box 1 & box 2 are plugged into being at different voltages (very typical in house wiring). So that voltage difference (even though it's small) is seen as part of the input to box 2 and becomes part of the signal -> bingo you get 60 cycle hum in your recording.
Balanced lines avoid this (ground loop) problem because now there are 3 wires (+, -, ground) aka (hold, cold, shield) aka (tip, ring, sleeve). Neither the + or - wires are tied to a chassis. Thus, Box 2 in the above scenario will respond to the difference between the + & - wires with little or no addition of 60 hz (or other noise). Further immunity from induced noise is achieved in balanced lines because any noise coupled into the + line is coupled identically into the - line. Then when box 2 gets the signal it looks at the difference between the + & - lines and the noise is subtracted-out.
Hope that helps. Sorry so long-winded.
Dec 04, 2003 10:58 pm Scump,
I must I am not enamered with your public presence on this site anyway; However, regardless of my feelings about that, I will explain, to the best of my ability the theory behind stray signal transmission and reception. If nothing else because if you have the question so do others.
Any time a AC or alternating current flows down any wire that wire acts as an antenna. Obviously some wires are better antenna's than others and transmit with greater strength and distance. These signals being transmitted by wires are not usually wanted and therefore considered "stray"; Industry term. Just as all wires transmit "radio waves" they also receive them. Every wire you string is an antenna. The balanced cord has two advantages which make it a poorer antenna than the unbalanced line.
1. As Bob spoke of the two wires carying the signal are of close to identical electrical characteristics. The more perfect the send and return path in an electrical circuit is the poorer the antenna. This has to do with inner inductance and capacatance which impead AC signals and cause phase shifting basicly forcing more energy into the air instead of traveling down the wires.
2. As Bob spoke of the in addition to the two inner wires there is an additional shield which acts as an outer antenna saping stray signal and leading it to ground before it can get to the signal carying conductors.
Now, as a side note. I truely hope you can simply enjoy the gifts you have been given. As they are just that. No pay here for us except knowledge. If you don't like the gift, please be so kind as to quietly dispose of it instead of complaining about it's quality per your perception. And that was free for the taking too. Your choice Captain!
Dec 05, 2003 01:21 am scrump-
Calm down man... you're attacking like dB attacked you or something, when in truth you're the one going after him. You asked a question, he gave an answer... that's the way it usually works. A stray signal is just that, any signal that is stray, or not the desired signal. Just calm down, relax, and learn something. And by teh way, asking dB not to respond to your questions is a stupid move, that man has a lot of knowlege about recording, as do many of us here. I wouldn't ask anyone not to answer my questions. I'd be denying myself a lot of knowlege.
And who said anything about kicking you off the site? When was that brought up?
Dec 05, 2003 01:22 am oh yeah, and balanced are good for almost everything, although for speakers you should run unbalanced cable.
Dec 05, 2003 09:23 am Thanks Bob, Walt and Loki for taking the time for the replies that actually say and explain something. I appreciate it. Much better understood now. I haven't and taken this site for granted, (read above), however, when I make the effort to respond to someones question (not often I get that opportunity on this site except for soundproofing stuff) I do so professionally and thouroughly or not at all. Thats all I would think anyone would ask is a little professionalism. Thats whats its all about, interspersed with a litte humour? OK, time to go fly the 777 off to Honolulu for 3 days!
bye bye....
Dec 05, 2003 12:08 pm Ya know dude, you gotta relax. I easily could have laughed at your question as being "stupid" if I was really a jerk-know-it-all type, but I didn't. I may have had fun with it, but I answered it. It is, in fact, loose, unattended RF signals (or any signal) flitting about the atmosphere.
For you to take offense to that because I didn't write a book about the subject (which one COULD do) speaks volumes about you.
Truth told, I apologize if it offended you, I really do. However, I am also shocked someone is so easily offended...but I hardly find any reason to kick you out of the site...kind of mellow-dramatic sounding to me.
Dec 05, 2003 04:12 pm I will say sometimes we take the lighter side of things here. So please dont take offense if someone seems a bit silly or whatever. No one here is going to be little anyone for asking a question, silly or not. I personally have been doing this for well over 30 years now, and have a tendancy to go over the edge sometimes. I may even give advice that seems outlandish at times, or even contradict something that may be exactly as the book intends it. But that is because over the years I learned to break the rules, and do things out of the ordinary. That is what taught me how to get the most out of what I have, doing alot with a little si easier then you think.
Anyway, so please dont take offense at anything someone, especially dB might say. It is not ment as a put down or put off. And truth be told, odds are you will get many answers to just one question, that is what we are here for, and to have some fun along the way.
Dec 05, 2003 08:32 pm Quote:
Do me a favor and leave my posts alone or just kick me off the site........
Woah, there... Sounds like Scrump isn't your biggest fan, dB.
...Let's all relax now...
Dec 07, 2003 02:09 pm Ok All,
Peace and thanks. I DO need to relax. However, from a newbie to speak up and try to make this a positive and pleasant experience by asking others to be a little respectful in their answers isn't asking much, I wouldn't think. I got on my soapbox and asked dB to "lead by example", etc. It wasn't so much your original answer but your response to requests for a little courtesy (a little strongly worded, sorry)that threw me off. Maybe I just needed to go kick the dog and not give dB so much s***. (Good thing I don't have a dog).
Gotta love those that jump on and try to add fuel to the fire by adding "grabbing popcorn" and "sounds like scrump isn't your favorite fan, dB"....
I'll go swallow a chill pill or three and hope my own stray signals don't intrude on anyone else today. Sorry guys.
Next time db, when I ask a question, "write a book" as a reply and maybe I'll take the pin out of my voodoo doll. Seriously, I'm not usually so "mellow dramatic" (real spelling "melodramatic" I think)........
Thanks all for helping me get my inputs properly aligned. Sometime the out signal needs some effects to clean up the signal. Who need Dr. Phil when you can have this place!!!!
Dec 07, 2003 06:13 pm Seriously, I'm not usually so "mellow dramatic" (real spelling "melodramatic" I think)........
When using multiple periods to signify a trailing sentence the real way to do that is by using three periods.
Ex: Man this thread is getting old... but not much I can do about it.
Dec 07, 2003 06:29 pm Ok, thread can end now, he got his answer.......................................................drop it. :-D
Dec 07, 2003 07:23 pm Luv the Dr. Phil referance scrump. I got a chuckle outa that.
Gald ya got things answered as well.
Dec 08, 2003 10:18 am Quote:
Gotta love those that jump on and try to add fuel to the fire by adding "grabbing popcorn" and "sounds like scrump isn't your favorite fan, dB"....
It was supposed to be comic relief, not fuel to the fire. No need to pass around the blame.
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