Mic bleeding fo recording drums

> > > Mic bleeding fo recording drums

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Member Since: Feb 26, 2010

I know, it's an age old problem that everyone faces. I have exhausted my brain trying to figure this out, soooo....

I have a kit with kick, snare, 3 up toms and 2 floors, HH, ride and 4-5 cymbals.

I mic every drum, hh, ride and two overheads. Into a yamaha mixing board, output each channel to a separate track on the computer (i have two M-Audio 1010LT cards in one machine).

I am an IT expert, so the problem is not on the pc or anything like that.

Basically, i could turn off the four cymbal mics and not lose any hh, ride or cymbals. That's how bad the bleeding is through the other mics, even the kick mic picks up other stuff.

I use SM57's on toms and snare and a kick mic for kick. I have tried inverting phase and testing each mic as we set up.

So before I throw all this crap out, can someone please let the secret out on how to minimize bleeding through the mics?

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Member
Since: Feb 25, 2010

Feb 26, 2010 02:52 pm

The short answer is you need a noise gate. I honestly couldn't tell you off hand what the dB needs to be set to, but noise gates are really easy to work with, just mess with the threshold so that you hear the immediate sound, but anything quieter than that threshold will not be heard.

If you're going into a DAW, then you want to put the gate on each channel, or if you're going into a mixer, then the mixer needs to have the gate on each channel. It's actually a pretty fantastic tool. Let me know if you need more help.

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Feb 26, 2010 03:43 pm

Yeah, gating the individual mics on a drum kit is a must. There are some great free VST plugin gates available that I've used. The Dynamics VST plugin that comes with Cubase has a great gate on it as well.

The main feature that you want in a gate is the ability to set your listen frequency. For instance, on your kick mic you want to set the listening frequency range to where only the kick drum will open the gate. So you'd want a narrow listening frequency range centered somewhere around 80 Hz, which is where the "boom" of a lot of kick drums would be. Now that your gate is only listening to those low-frequency sounds, you can set the threshold so that only the kick drum, and not the low-tom or other LF noise, will open the gate. The kick drum should be the loudest signal that the kick mic is picking up, so there should be a pretty big gap in amplitude of any hit of the kick drum compared to any hit on any other piece of the kit.

Another necessity is choosing a mic with the correct mic pickup pattern for the job. For individual pieces of the kit, you want a pickup pattern that rejects input signal coming from anywhere but directly in front of the mic. So a cardioid, super cardioid, or hypercardioid pickup patter would be desirable.

For your overheads, you'd want a much more broad pickup pattern. Really you don't need to mic each cymbal. 1 overhead mic will suffice, or 2 will do if you'd rather have a stereo image of the kit. You don't even need to mic the hi-hat. If you correctly position 2 small or large diaphragm mics as overheads, then you'll pick up the entire kit with an emphasis on the cymbals. Then you can pan them accordingly in your DAW software and achieve a nice stereo image of the kit. Then blend in the individual kit mics to taste, gate them so they don't add to the presence of the cymbals in the mix, and you should be good to go.

Getting everything in phase is another important aspect to using a multi-mic setup, especially on a drum kit. A great starting point for micing a drum kit is the "Recorderman technique". Google that term and read up on it. It's a great way to position those first few mics on your kit. Then you can add to it for a more complex mic setup.

And finally, yet another very important factor in recording drums is to have the drummer go easy on the cymbals. Beat the hell out of the drums, but take it easy on the cymbals. This will not only minimize leakage of the cymbals into the kit mics, but it will also help the pieces of the drum kit sound bigger and better in comparison to the cymbals.

Good luck, hopefully we've been of some help in your drum micing quest.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 26, 2010 08:26 pm

Thanks for the great replies, I must say that I am quite familiar with gates, i have been in the live sound and recording business for a long time, I can get a killer drum sound in a live setting over a large PA system, but recording is a whole different thing. I bought some gates that had adjustable frequency response, couldn't get them to do much so I sold them. I have also used gate VST's on a couple recordings, they work fine but when the gate opens for example when the snare is hit, the hi hat comes through for a split second, so it sounds like crap. Where can i get a vst gate that has frequency settings like mentioned above? Free, not free, i don't care, i just need to get this fixed :-)
Again thanks for the friendly advice guys!
PS, I am in my studi now setting up the drum kit over again so now is prime time to start over.

http://www.unitedmusicians.info
Contributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007

Feb 26, 2010 09:18 pm

...but you shouldn't gate OH's right?

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Feb 26, 2010 09:47 pm

No, I don't think that you'd want to gate the OH mics. That'd be a pretty conspicuous sound of the gate opening and closing.

As far as the gate letting other pieces of the kit through when it opens, that's definitely a sign of a ton of leakage into the mic. But that's going to happen to a certain extent no matter what. The trick is to minimize it.

I'd suggest using the fastest attack you can, and find a release that balances the amount of tail of the hit has so it still sounds natural, but shuts the gate before the leaked sound has a chance to really make an impact.

The free gate that I've used is FloorFish, from DigitalFishPhones, in their Fish Fillets collection:

www.digitalfishphones.com...2&subItem=5

You adjust the "detect frequency" knob to the appropriate frequency, and you can use the "listen" button to hear only the listen frequency. This helps you hone in on what you want to use to open the gate by using your ears instead of a number on the screen. Pretty nifty for a freebie.

That whole Fish Fillets collection is pretty fun, although the compressors tend to be a little distortion-inducing. They're pretty extreme compressors.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 26, 2010 10:13 pm

Yeah I have the fish fillets pack, wasn't able to get much out of that either.
Did I mention this is for rock, metal and blues recordings mostly? So I need that tight clicky drum sound. I have no problem getting the sound, it's just the damn bleeding that sucks.
I actually had the best sound from the MDA gate, it gets really tight but maybe I neglected to try using the release to make it sound more natural.
Do you know of a pro vst gate that has precise freqeuncy settings? I don't mind buying something.

And no, I would never gate the overheads, those are for picking up the whole kit, so no problem there.

How does this one look to you? www.kjaerhusaudio.com/gag-1.php

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 26, 2010 10:53 pm

Gentlemen, I have found the God of all gates, PSP Audioware makes it and I already owned it! Just never tried using the gate.
Check it out www.pspaudioware.com/
Click the Mixpack2 then at the bottom of the next page is the MixGate2, I installed the pack, selected the gate for the snare on an existing project, chose preset "Snare Only" and BAM, natural snare sound and NO BLEEDING! Added it to all the toms, floors and kick, and that was it, clean, no bleed mix.

This plugin is awesome, problem solved and I won't be throwing all my equipment out the studio door :-)
Thanks for all the input and I hope everyone at least tries the PSP plug.

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Feb 26, 2010 11:03 pm

Im a bit late in the game here, but really from my own experiences micing i try to make sure that bleed is "natural" before considering gating. If im getting kick in my OHs but it sounds like wat a kick should sound like from where the cymbal is i dont worry too much about it. If it is like that it will initially be easier to gate but if u do decide to just leave it in, it wont sound horrible and u can just EQ stuff to bring it out more.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 26, 2010 11:35 pm

Yeah that's true to an extent, but not for every mic, not for every situation.
The OH mics are fine, let them pick up whatever they want, i will eq then accordingly. But it's mainly the snare and up toms that picked up hi hat, cymbals and ride so loudly that I didn't even need overheads or hh mic.
This PSPaudioware plugin mixgate2 totally took care of it for me.
I will certainly start one mic at a time, do the phase invert thing, position them as best i can, eq on the mixer and so on until the whole kit sound decent. Then in the DAW software add the mixgate2 first in line on the snare, kick and toms and go from there.
So far with my tests tonight it beats the crap out of every other thing I have tried.
I actually feel a sense of relief, this is a problem i have been trying to solve for 10 years!

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Feb 26, 2010 11:37 pm

Yeah, I got carried away with the gating idea. I still think its a great thing to use for a drum kit, but I totally forgot to mention the first thing to do: work on mic positioning. Keep in mind the pickup pattern of each mic that you are using. Position each mic such that the piece of the kit upon which its placed is in the strongest area of pickup for the mic. Try to position them where the strongest rejection is pointed towards unwanted sources.

It's so much easier to handle the signals during mixing when you do everything you can to deal with this problem during tracking.

So for instance, your snare mic with tons of hi-hat bleed. Since you're using an SM57 on the snare, you want to make sure that the hi-hat is behind the SM57, where the rejection is greatest. Check out page 12 of the SM57's manual (page 11 of the .pdf) and look at the polar pattern. At the higher frequencies (from 4 KHz and above, which is getting to that point where the hi-hat's bleeding will be loudest), there's a little "dip" that defies the normal cardioid pickup pattern:

www.shure.com/stellent/gr...pro_sm57_ug.pdf

So you'd want the hi-hat to be in the snare mic's rejection zone, which is slightly off to the side of the rear of the mic for higher frequency sounds. So whichever mic position you go with, make sure that you keep the hi-hat in that dead zone.

The position I've been told, and which I choose to use myself, is to place the mic towards the perimiter of the snare head between the hi-hat and the tom. Point the mic directly at the spot where the drummer's stick comes in contact with the drum head. The mic shoud be about 1 or 2 inches from the drum head.

Mic position is normally such a subjective thing. Subtle differences in your mic's orientation can have some suprisingly large effects on the overall tone. But when it comes to rejecting bleed, you have to at least work with the mic's polar pattern in mind.

Good luck!

:edit:
Hey, glad to hear you found something that helps you out! I've never used that gate before. I'll have to check the it out.

One thing I forgot mention about gating, but it seems that you already know, is to make sure that it's the very first thing in your chain of effects. Compressors, reverbs, delays, chorus, whatever...it should all come after the gate.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Feb 27, 2010 06:21 am

dont forget the mic position. face the mics away from other drums and cymbals

compress and gate.
make sure your room is controlled as well. everything could be bouncin off the walls

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 27, 2010 09:25 am

The room was built for studio use, there is high grade studio foam covering all walls around it, Spray on truck bedliner (vortex) covers all walls and ceiling under the foam.
Mic positioning is evidentally ok since the new gate has taken care of the issue.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006

Feb 27, 2010 02:54 pm

Just a thought, but if you have enough cymbals coming through the snare/toms that you can mute the OH then they may be too loud in comparison to the OH. OH should be providing quite a bit of crash/snap/crack while the close mics augment (imo) the sound and add some beef. If you have your OH in a position where they add no snare/toms you may want to move em.

I get bleed through every mic of course but only one drum (floor tom - I gate it) causes me an problem as my ride is very close to it.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Feb 28, 2010 01:51 am

No, this is a pro studio situation, I am not going to do stuff like that. I just wanted other pro opinions on how to stop bleed when micing an entire kit.

Master of the Obvious?
Member
Since: Jun 29, 2004

Mar 03, 2010 10:18 pm

#1 - Tell the drummer to stop hitting the cymbals so hard, and to hit the snare/toms harder.

#2 - Move the cymbals up a couple or few inches.

#3 - Point the mics away from the other cymbals & learn the directional pickup properties of said mics (it's very often not directly behind the mic that's picked up the least!)

#4 - Profit?

Master of the Obvious?
Member
Since: Jun 29, 2004

Mar 03, 2010 10:19 pm

Another trick is to set the gate to reduce only a few dB, vs. completely closed/open. This doesn't always work, but the human ear can pick up sound vs. no sound a hell of a lot easier than loud sound vs. not quite as loud sound.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Mar 03, 2010 10:34 pm

Thanks for the input but I guess I have not explained myself well enough. I have been a professional musician for over 20 years, I know what I am doing. I just assumed when I always used gates for this task that somebody must know something that I don't, so I came in and asked.

1) Drummer is not hitting too hard, it happens with any kit, any drummer.
2) Cymbal position is fine
3) I agree, I have to work on this depending on the mic, but have yet to find any real dead spots
4) I don't know what you mean by profit

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Mar 03, 2010 11:54 pm

now its clear, he know's what he is doing ok! lol.

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Mar 04, 2010 03:08 am


Wow i've seen this thread up a few days and i click back to see if theres any cool new info, i wont get into detail but its getting a bit hard to resist doing something that may be considered "trolling"

but i will overcome

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Mar 04, 2010 08:10 am

Deon, there's no need to be condescending, I simply don't need people to give me the obvious. I would not be asking for other professional's opinions if I was at the ground floor. Evidently there are a lot of beginners that come here to ask questions, I just wanted to make clear that I am not one of them so people don't tell me to make sure the console is powered on. I am looking for relevant and productive information, not a "how to" guide covering the basics.

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Mar 04, 2010 11:14 am

so tempting!

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Mar 04, 2010 11:24 am

So what's stopping you? Let's hear it.

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Mar 04, 2010 11:57 am

Well, if you're still getting this level of leakage, then you must still have some territory to cover in your technique. No matter how the room is treated, no matter how you've done it thus far in your career, maybe there's still time for some adjustment to your technique.

I think that Steve's suggestions are all totally valid. The "profit" thing is a reference to an old South Park episode.

Step 1: Collect underpants
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profits!


Inside joke, no ill-will meant towards you PCS. But just simmer down a bit, be patient. We're all after the same goals here, and that's to help each other achieve the best results we can with our meager budgets and setups.

If your results are still not satsfactory, then let's keep a dialog going here. Let's get some more details, and let's get your drums sounding as good as we can amongst ourselves. You've obviously no idiot, and besides what you might be inclined to believe so far, neither are we.

We're all amateurs here, trying to help each other. With your expectatons in check, let's move on to the "helping" part of this equation.

Now, no matter what, the leakage form one individual mic to another should not be excessive unless you're doing one of the things that we're trying to establish not to. The OH mics are the only ones that should be picking up a bunch of everything. Remember, subtle movements make big differences. Really study the results of each adjustment before deeming it a failure. Some leakage is going to occur no matter what. But the correct combination of drummer velocity, mic positioning, room treatment, and patience will certainly yield results that you'll be happy with.

Fair enough?

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Mar 04, 2010 12:14 pm

Thanks for the post, I understand yours and the antichrists point. The issue is that I am not sure how "little" bleeding is considered normal. I have played with mic positioning for years and never really get a measurable difference, so I have always turned to gates (hardware/software or combo) and it wasn't until now that I tried a software gate with selectable frequency filters. As mentioned above, this has solved the issue for me.
If anyone has this same issue and needs a VST gate with the capability mentioned here, I found MixGate2 at www.pspaudioware.com

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Mar 04, 2010 10:14 pm


I'd rather not give in, but let me just say that when you say you're a "pro" and only want other "pros" opinions on a site called "homerecordingconnection" I think you have to reevaluate who is being condescending

Hobbyist musician,pro recorder
Member
Since: May 15, 2007

Mar 05, 2010 12:08 am

If I may, I read the OP's initial request and he made it clear he knew his way around after a few posts, so he was looking for a specific answer in a narrow category.

I never heard of recorderman and so was quite interested in all the posts and learned some new techniques for myself (and that I was bastardizing Glynm John's setup by not doing it right).

I thought this was a great and informative thread. Happily he found a plugin for him that works. For whatever reason. It's hard to quantify what one hears in their head and how to get it into concrete form. We all know that.

So no need for bruised egos or feelings...the question provided very good information and it was clear he had tried all of these things so he was not a newbie, just had a query.




http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007

Mar 05, 2010 05:56 am

oh gee, thanks for clearing it all up mate.

my ego is feeling much better.


pcs800,
you keep going on about pro this, expert that, no one told you how to turn on the console mate, all tips given were legit and about drums and micing tech.


if you want to get all specific about specifics, then be more specific eh.

a gate isnt a new invention.
you cant record drums properly without gating.

im done.


Master of the Obvious?
Member
Since: Jun 29, 2004

Mar 05, 2010 11:19 am

I think we've all failed to do one of the first things we should've done to help diagnose this problem. PCS800, while relying on a specific type of gate to solve your problem isn't a terrible solution, it might be good for you to post some samples that illustrate your problem. That way, we could simultaneously hear an example of your current skill level (which, the way you've been talking, would probably have made it clear you're no n00b right away), and help make a significantly more educated guess as to what your problem might be.

Perhaps a bounce of your drum tracks, minus the OH's?



*Edit: As a side-note, starting a thread with things like "Basically, i could turn off the four cymbal mics and not lose any hh, ride or cymbals. That's how bad the bleeding is through the other mics, even the kick mic picks up other stuff...", strongly suggests that your skill level might be a bit lower than you're thinking it is. Not necessarily lower than any of ours, but I'm not sure how you could not see that coming to a home recording messageboard and asking questions like this, makes it seem like you're likely a home recordist like any of us.

Member
Since: Feb 26, 2010

Mar 05, 2010 11:52 am

Yes I agree, I should have included some samples in my first post, my bad.
I am not at the studio at the moment, I will post some later once I get there for the weekend.

> > > Mic bleeding fo recording drums

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