Aug 08, 2009 04:19 pm ummm what exactly is the problem you're having?
sounds like you have everything you need....
organization as where to put it all?
sorry i'm just unclear on what you're asking.
PA Rig Organization Advice Needed
Posted on Aug 08, 2009 04:12 pm
Doug Babbitt
Sound as good as you play
Member Since: Dec 23, 2008
Ok - Based on what I'm trying to accomplish, this should be a very simple rig to organize. However, I seem to have a mental block that is preventing me from arriving at the best solution. Any and all constructive advice would be appreciated.
Here's the rig:
Mixer - Phonic HB24MKII Firewire - has 16 channels with line in, mic pre, and inserts, plus channels 1 - 8 have direct outs (post everything). 2 pre-fader/post insert aux's, plus 2 post fader/post insert aux's. Each channel is assignable to groups 1/2 and 3/4 and main LR. Each group is assignable to main L and/or R.
Compressors - Outboard units as needed.
Grapic EQs - a pair of Behringer FBQ3102 (so up to 4 channels of graphic EQ)
Snake - 24x4.
FOH Speakers - 2x SRM450 powered tops through built-in 120 Hz crossover in SWA1501 powered subs.
Vocal Monitors - 4x PM100 passive near field monitors (the band's choice) driven via Phonic DMX1501 amp (2 per channel in parallel mode).
EDrum Monitors - 3x SRM350s.
Here's the assignment (all mono):
1 - 4x vocal mics with individual compression mixed to main.
2 - One vocal mix uncompressed to vocal monitors.
3 - EDrums compressed to main.
4 - EDrums uncompressed to drum monitors.
Like I said .... ridiculously simple.
To avoid limiting the discussion I'm not going to say what I've been doing, except that I've been using splitter cables at the console to split each incoming signal in two, so that FOH and Monitors levels for each signal can be driven off channel faders.
I do this because the aux channels are all post insert, so I can't run into 5 channels, individually compress each signal for FOH, and also do an uncompressed monitor mix in an aux bus.
Thanks for looking.
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Aug 08, 2009 04:19 pm ummm what exactly is the problem you're having?
sounds like you have everything you need....
organization as where to put it all?
sorry i'm just unclear on what you're asking.
Aug 08, 2009 07:35 pm Good point daddy00.
Here's one question:
With the 5 signals coming in and being split (say the monitor splits in channels 1 to 5 and FOH splits in 6 to 10), how would you route the signals within the mixer to get the 4 mixes that I need?
I route things a certain way, but I'm hoping I'll get some better options if a few folks chime in.
If I could get a good result without splitting the incoming signals I'd be especially happy. So that's a second question:
Am I going about it completely wrong?
Thanks again.
Aug 08, 2009 08:51 pm gottcha...use your mixer's aux sends to creat a mix for your monitors.....connect your aux out to a power amp that will power your monitors....this will allow you to do a totally independant mix to the monitors on the stage ("more me please").....
use your mixers main outs to feed the poweramps that are gooin' to your main speakers.
no need to split signals anywere really.
Aug 09, 2009 09:21 am That's the way that I routed the signals before I added compression via the channel inserts. All of the aux sends are post channel insert. Everything that I've read says not to compress monitor signals. The first time I used compression I routed as you described above .... feedback seemed much worse than usual, which I attributed to compression in the vocal monitors.
I've considered dropping compression completely, but it's really improved the quality of the vocals.
Also, note that I'm running monitors for the Edrums through different speakers than the 2x5" nearfield vocal monitors, so I need somethin separate there. As I think about it, compression on the Edrum monitors probably doesn't matter much. Is that correct? If so would you use an aux send for the Edrum monitor signal?
Good discussion. Thanks.
Aug 09, 2009 05:22 pm Hey Doug.
Do you have a separate EQ for each mix?
Yes, you should not compress the mix that is going to the monitors, for the same that is working FOH. But, you use a compressor that is separate for the monitors.
The reason that the monitors are feeding back, is that you do not have the gain matched.
The compressor must be in bypass when you set your gain structure for your channel. Otherwise, your turning up the gain, and the comp. is trying to pull it down, when it gets into it's operating range.
Remember with any compressor, you want your unity gain on the channel first. Then you want unity gain in the compressor. Then you take it out of bypass.
You should have all of your outboard gear gain matched before engaging them.
As for the drummer. As long as he is not asking for a ton of bass, you should be OK with the nearfield monitors. And if you don't have the Aux sends to give him his own, then letting the Bass player and the drummer share a mix is a common practice.
Aug 10, 2009 08:44 am Rob - Thanks for the info.
To answer your question, per my first post I have 4 channels of 31-band EQ available for output channels.
Any thoughts on the basic question? See my first three posts above.
How should I route the incoming signals within the mixer to get the output that I need?
I'm getting the feeling that you and daddy00 think the answer is so obvious that I must be asking something else. I'm sure you're right, but I've got some sort of mental block that prevents me from seeing it.
Aug 10, 2009 10:13 am Uh, Doug........ I'm confused here.
You looking to get just four monitor mixes correct?
You have four aux sends on the board. So, I'm confused about which routing that you need.
Your splitting the signal to the house and monitors, which is perfect. That way you have separate compression. So, other then running the monitors from the four aux sends, what else did you need to route?
Aug 10, 2009 10:27 am well, gettin' your head around aux busses and monitor mix's is a bit of a revelation...once it clicks...
doug, do you understand what an aux buss does completely?
its' like having another "fader" on every channel to send to an entirely different "main" aka buss completely distinct and isolated (split) form the main buss.
so it's like having another mixer with in it....use your "aux out" on every channel as you normally would use a volume fader for that particular channel....then to the right somewhere you have a knob that says "aux output" or something to that effect.....this is like a master fader...only it'll be controlling the volume of your monitors.
does that make total 100% sense to you?
Aug 10, 2009 12:45 pm Sorry, I guess I haven't been clear:
1 - I have used the aux busses extensively in the past, including for 2 separate monitor mixes in the pre-fader aux busses 1 & 2, for adding effects on aux 3 and for post-fader aux fed subs on aux 4.
*** pardon the caps below .... they are not symbolic of shouting .... just emphasis ***
2 - THIS IS KEY: My difficulty started after I obtained compressors and started adding compression at the channel inserts. Based on the mixer's manual and schematic, plus my experience, there is no way to get a pre-insert monitor mix(i.e. pre-compression) and a post-insert FOH mix from one set of channels at the same time. ALL CHANNEL OUTPUT WHETHER AUX, GROUP, OR MAIN IS POST INSERT.
*** Remember, I wasn't shouting ****
3 - So much for holding out on what I'm doing. Here's how I handle an incoming mic signal:
Mic A => Mic Cable A => Stage Box Input A => Snake Output A => Splitter Cable A => FOH (AFOH) and Monitor (AMon) splits.
AFOH => Channel X Mic Preamp => compression, high pass, EQ, effects buss, fader, PANNED FULL LEFT => Assigned to Group 1/2 (along with all other FOH) => Group 1/2 Assigned to Main Left => Main Output Left => GEQ => Powered speakers.
AMON => Channel Y Mic Preamp => no insert, high pass, EQ, fader, PANNED FULL RIGHT => Assigned to Group 3/4 (along with all other vocal monitor) => Group 3/4 Assigned to Main Right => Main Output Right => GEQ => Power Amp => Near Field Vocal Monitors.
EDrums - FOH is routed same as a mic signal. Since we don't want these in the vocal monitors, I don't route them to Group 3/4 as I do with vocals. Instead, I simply tap the Derect Out for the channel, through a GEQ and on to the powered drum monitors.
Starting from the inputs and shooting for max gain without clipping, my gain structure pretty much ends-up with channel input gain, channel faders, and group faders all at or within +/- 5 dB of unity. Depending on the circumstances, the main fader ends up at -10 to -15 dB. Input on the FOH powered subs is usually at about 1/3 open, the tops are at 1/2 open, vocal monitor amp is fully open, and the powered drum monitor inputs are at various settings (drummer sets his at 1/2 and the other two are usually lower and cover the rest of the band).
So, there you go. That's how I do it. I'm praying it's not the best way to go about it. How would you do it?
Aug 10, 2009 03:24 pm OK. Now I see where you are running into trouble here.
You need 4 mixes, and two effect sends. So, you are using the the groups to send out as your mixes.
And that is where you will find the trouble.
All of the groups are post- fade. So, any movement at FOH will change the monitors. And the groups also have another preamp to them. So, it's adding gain.
Here is what I do when I run into this situation.
Still split your input signal to house and monitors.
Then use the aux sends 1 - 4 for the monitor mixes.
Use the group out 1 - 2 for your effect send. And return them mono to a channel. So, reverb on 15, delay on 16.
Do not assign the group outs to the mains. And then assign all of the input channels to the mains. NO GROUPS!
Now, I know that aux send 3 - 4 are still post-fade. But, you have better control over each channel this way, without adding another preamp in line.
This will allow you monitors to more independent of FOH, and will help eliminate some of your feedback issues.
The only other thing that I see that could be a problem, is the fact that you don't have another stereo EQ for the last two mixes. That's still OK since you have a separate channel for you monitors and house. So, you can just do some heavy cuts from the parametric EQ on the board. Do this for the monitors, not the house. You do need an 31 band RQ for the house no matter what.
Aug 10, 2009 04:25 pm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said! thanks rob...
my bad for not understandin' the problem completely....
Aug 10, 2009 04:32 pm Thanks Rob - This must be an especially busy season for you, so I appreciate the time.
Let me see if I can identify what is the same and what is different between what I do and what you suggest.
Split incoming signals = same.
Use aux channels for monitors = different. I've used aux 1 for the vocal monitors in the past, so I'll go back to that, except now on a different channel than FOH vocals.
I figured that tapping the drum monitor channel's direct out was simpler than using an aux buss. It also saves a pre-fader aux buss for another mix if needed.
Is my thinking incorrect?
Use Group 1/2 for effect sends = different. The effects engine in the mixer works through aux 3 and seems to work fine for me. The band likes one particular reverb (#09 on the dial), which I keep turned down because the crowd says they sound great without it.
Assign all FOH channels to Main L/R = different. Why wouldn't I do it that way? You may remember that I have a knack for making things more complicated than necessary.
Regarding EQs - I have 2 stereo 31 band EQs, so:
1) - Main Left and Main Right (FOH) through one unit, and
2) - Aux send 1 (vocal monitors) and aux send 2 (drum monitors) through the other.
That works, correct?
Thanks again.
Aug 10, 2009 05:32 pm Yeah, that should help for now.
It won't be perfect. But, it will cut down on the feedback to the monitors.
Aug 11, 2009 10:28 am What would be the ideal setup? I don't mind dropping a few bucks to make things better.
Aug 11, 2009 11:14 am As you know, I don't like to try and spend other peoples money. That's why I try and make as few suggestions as I can when giving advice.
Since you asked, I would say that a different board may be in order for you live applications. And the Phonic for recording.
I'll look around on Ebay for you. I'll see if I can find something that will be very affordable, but capable of doing the job for you.
I think something that has 6 or more aux sends that are switchable pre/post. This way, you can have 4 separate monitor mixes, and two effect sends as well. And may be something that is 16 - 24 channels.
I think that there are a few Yamaha's that fit this bill. When I get a chance later today, I'll see what I find.
Aug 11, 2009 11:19 am I just took a quick look to see what was there, and I did find this right away. Not bad so far!
cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-GF24-...id=p3286.c0.m14
Aug 11, 2009 11:25 am NO! I'm not suggesting this one.
This one is just for fun, since it is my favorite of the Yamaha desks.
cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-PM5D-...id=p3286.c0.m14
Aug 11, 2009 02:49 pm OK, this one is a little big to carry in a car. You would need a van or such for this one. But for the price, this is a great console.
cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-YAMAHA-...id=p3286.c0.m14
Never mind on this one. It's strictly a monitor desk.
Aug 11, 2009 02:54 pm Here is an Allen and Heath that is not too bad.
cgi.ebay.com/Allen-Health...id=p3286.c0.m14
Aug 12, 2009 03:25 pm A new mixer isn't in the cards right now.
I think I'll revert to a setup that I was using a few months ago, where I was using a second mixer for monitors. It's a 2001 Behringer with 8 mono and 4 stereo channels and 4 aux busses per channel. I paid $85 for it on eBay and it has a nice solid feel to it. I can feed this 2nd mixer with the incoming monitor splits.
The reason I tried to go back to the single mixer was that it was unwieldy to move 2 mini gigrigs to every show, attach and detach connections between the 2, and attach the snake leads.
Now I'm building a rolling chassis that will hold the 2 gigrigs together without needing to detach anything, including the snake.
I'll let you know how it works.
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