Very basic questions... Please help
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Posted on Dec 08, 2008 04:12 pm
Songswelove
Member Since: Dec 08, 2008
I am not a sound engineer professional. I just have a very basic question about live concert reinforcement and recording. I was told that you better not record the amplified sound that the audience hears because the amplifying effects might distort the concert music. In my case, my son's school orchestra concert is deciding whether to record right off from their built in sound mixer (i.e., link an output to a recorder, I don't know what kind of recorder that might be .. :( ). However, the other people said that we should do so because (?)..
Please help. All I need is a reasonable explanation so I can support the correct side. Thanks a lot.
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Dec 08, 2008 04:16 pm I hate to say this, but I have to toss out the big ol' "depends".
Due to different instruments being different volumes, the sound board may have instruments at different levels to even out the sound. violins may need some extra fill through the sound system, whereas kettle drums may not, for example.
I would suggest the best route to go would to take a couple of line level feeds from the sound board, and have a couple of microphones on either side of the sound booth to get a room sound as well, then, later, mix to suit.
As far as what kind of recorder, in my example, a small 4 channel/track recording device would work fine. Relatively inexpensive.
Dec 08, 2008 04:19 pm Some of your question is confusing me for some reason, but I can put in a thought or two --
The average "off the board" mix sounds like (poop) because what you're sending to the system isn't necessarily what you'd want to send "to tape" (or digital). It's not like tracking through studio monitors in a nice, controlled space -- It's enhancing what's already happening inside a room.
Nothing in particular (short of improperly connecting the chain) should affect the signal going from the board to the crossover/amplifier/speaker network -- You just might not like the "raw" sound going to that network.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 08, 2008 04:22 pm I will state as well the usual route to cover all bases would be to combine both a live feed from the mixer as well as using at least a pair of room mic's to capture what the board might miss as far as the room ambiance goes.
I have used more then 2 mic's in those situation's.
I know another member here who has done the NZ orchestra with I believe 6 hanging mics and a few direct instrument mic's. The outcome was excellent.
I would suggest to be on the right side suggesting a combination of both.
And the recording mic's will not be fed back into the live mix for the auditorium, that is if the engineer knows what he is doing.
Dec 08, 2008 04:37 pm Just to throw my two cents in :)
I have done some recordings of the live shows that I have been on. One of the way that worked out OK for me, was to take two of the Aux sends as a left right mix.
That way I could adjust the level of each piece going to tape. It required an extra length of time for sound check to do so. But I got a nice recording from it.
I did this for John Pizzoelle and the Reading Pop orchestra. As far as I understand, he turned it in to a small regional release. (Although I never saw a dime from it!) Check with the sound engineer that you have. see if he is willing to do so.
Dec 08, 2008 04:53 pm Oh,,, what great responses I got. Thank you all. The only thing is that I am lacking of your knowledge. I am even embarrassed to ask my following questions. Please bear with me. Thank you.
1. If we have 6 stage mics to pick up the instruments and 2 room mics (left and right of the stage), how should we record them? 6 -> mixer -> recorder#1, 2 -> recorder #2 or 8 -> mixer -> recorder
I know how to use Audition to put digital tracks together. I can eliminate some unwanted pops here and there in this step.
2. In my previous question, I don't think my mixer should take in 2 room mic sounds since audience doesn't need to listen to them. They already have the mixed output from those 6 mics, correct? That 2 extra mics are only used for recording purpose.
3. Our teachers want to hook those two room mics into a DVD recorder as well. They want to use this sound as the DVD sound. I don't know about it since we should have a better (rich) mixed sound from our step #1. Why not sync that sound with video and produce better audio/video DVD? Any suggestions?
Thank you very very much....
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 08, 2008 05:03 pm Yep, you pretty much have it right.
The 6 stage mics can be used and sent to the PA, as well as Rob suggested also sending and aux signal from that channel to the aux send which will then run ot the recorder. Then the 2 room mics would be sent only via the aux to the recorder.
Depending on the mixer you may have 4 aux channels and two of those can be sent directly to the DVD recorder separate from the audio recorder send.
Also, if the mixer has Sub out busses (the enginer should know what those are) he can use those along with or instead of the aux channels.
Dec 08, 2008 05:26 pm Thanks a lot. I learned...
Well, I never thought that you could also use mixer as a 'monitor' and output it as aux to recorder. That is great. I will see if our teachers have all the cables and stuffs... I will have more questions to ask once I know how much more I don't know..... :)
Thanks again to all.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 08, 2008 05:39 pm Its all good. Its what we do best here.
Dec 10, 2008 12:27 am The latest setup I have for now is:
4 condenser mics on stage -> mixer, 2 condensers stereo mics hung in the middle of auditorium (i.e., 2 room mics) -> some recording device
I was told that the 2 room mics should be good enough to 'reflect' the best mix of sounds. Therefore, they are betting that these two mics should be enough for our CD/DVD sound effect. I don't know about this. Would this sound be busy (not clear..)? Any possible problems that we are not seeing?
Another reason for only picking these 2 stereo mics output for recording is that those 4 stage condenser mics output is already amplified through our mixer, and to the speakers. Therefore, the entire auditorium is acting like a sound box and produces pleasing music to the middle of the auditorium....
My guess is that we should also record the mixed sound before sending it to the speakers. At the end, I will find ways to combine all pieces of recording together. Am I making sense at all? Am I creating worse music than those 2 room mics can collect?
Thanks in advance. I hope my writing is understandable to all of you who help me.
Thanks.....
Dec 10, 2008 11:20 am What you are saying, is really the ideal way to record a live show.
Just understand, that it's easy to say, just not as easy to employ.
To record a live show this way requires you to split the signal. One half is going to a separate board just for recording. The other is for the room mix. To do this, you really should have a transformer in the middle of the two boards. Without it, you can get a buzz or a hum in one or the other.
Since you only have a few channels, you can look to see if anyone in your area rents an ISO splitter box.
In one of these post, we talked about the different models, and price. I just don't remember which one it was.
Rappco makes a four channel version that is popular to rent. I think places like Guitar Center, and others rent them for a fair price. You just may need to rent a small board as well.
NOTE: When running two boards on a transformed ISO split, only one board will activate the Phantom Power. This board will be the one on the Main side of the split.
From here, you can work the mix going to the recorder any which way you wish. Since there is no chance of feedback. :)
