Help me nail that tone!!!!!
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Posted on Jan 29, 2008 11:26 pm
boedonaldson
Sir SM57
Member Since: Jan 29, 2008
Hey this is my first post and im a noob at recording. This is the equipment I am working with (I cannot buy anymore, I am broke and now that im back at University I will be for a while.).
Ok heres the stuff Im working with recording wise.
- SM57 and 58 (Both BETA's)
- Mogami mic cables.
- Behringer XENYX2222FX Mixer
- Behringer UCA202 soundcard.
- Cubase SX3
I am basically trying to record my Marshall and Gibson setup without much luck. Here is my proper gear setup.
Gibson Les Paul Standard (SD Alnico Pro II's)--->Planet waves Cable-------> Marshall JCM800 50 watt head------> THD Hotplate------> Marshall JCM800 4x12.
My amp is EQ'ed as following.
Presence:6, Bass:5.5, Mid:6, Treble:8, Master Volume:9, Preamp Volume:8. On the hotplate I have both the Bright and Deep switches activated and it on the adjustable -16DB setting running flat out.
Live it sounds like sonic heaven. Recorded it sounds like sonic bull&*%$.
Ok heres my recording environment. It is a strange one. I have basically my stack in my built in wardrobe so it acts as kind of a isolation chamber so I can hear my mix much better. The cabinet faces the wardrobe door and the mic sits in front of it. I have tried close miking against the grill and about 3-4 inches away. The floor is carpet. The sound I end up with is basically like nothing I am hearing. It seems to be very muddy and to lower midrangy I guess. The more I play with EQ's the worst it ends up sounding. I just cant seem to get it to sound as thick as it does sound live (tight and smooth). I you want an Idea of what it sounds like well Slash basically has the same setup. Any suggestions on how I should set my mixer (4 eq dials split between 12kHz and 80Hz. Should I combine both mics to get a bigger sound. Should I record from a longer distance away? Any tips settings or insight would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Boe
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Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2008 12:14 am a few things you can do.
1. insulate your isolation cab or wardrobe top to bottom with that egg carton foam or at least something to stop the sound bouncing around in there. trust me it will sound so much better if you do that.
2. mic the cab on the top speaker, it will be less bassy, place the 57 up to the grill very slightly off axis in line where the dust cap is joined to the speaker(though its a matter of choice)
3.with ya settings i would turn it down a bit i think 9 with a pre amp at 8 is probably stinkin too much. find a volume where the amp sounds best, not too loud or too soft. basicly you wanna get your sound as best you can get it before recording. really you cant make it sound much better once its done, just tweak it. most important though kill the bass as much as you can. by the time you add all your other instruments there will be so much bass in the mix it will sound like turd, you can always add it but you cant always get rid of it, it builds up real quick.
4. are you using a pedal? its really hard to get a clean quality distortion sound using the marshall head by itself. its hard to get the drive without all the noise n stuff coming with it.
Using a pedal really gets rid of that and you just run it through a clean channel on the head.
5. I know everyone has their preference but guitar srings are often overlooked. what gauge are you using? it makes a difference. too heavy a gauge will kill the clarity.
Hope that helps dude. let me know if that works out for ya.
Jan 30, 2008 12:45 am Thanks for the reply. I have been miking the the top left speaker on the cab so far. I will try the off axis alignment (though Im not sure whether it has been perfectly in axis to begin with). As far as volume settings and preamp settings go the THD Hotplate takes the volume down if thats what you mean. I guess I could back off the preamp vol a bit as I do have a DS-2 OD-2 and Microamp to work with as far as pedals go. Do you mean to cut the Bass heaps on the amp, the mixer or what? As far as noise goes, the marshall head is actually reasonaly quiet (not much buzzing or stuff). I guess my problem may be my strings though now you metion it. I play a hybrid set which is basically 12's at the top 4 and the High E and B are equvalent to out of a set of 11's. So I may have to try some lighter strings. Plus trying to shred with those bad boys arnt alot of fun lol. Thanks for your advice and help. Could you explain a little more about the mic placement. Where is the dustcap?
Cheers, Boe
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2008 01:49 am the dust cap is that dome shaped thing in the centre of yer speaker bout the size of a small orange cut in half.
if you have a good look you can see the join where its glued onto the speaker. not sure what the grill is like on ya cab, may need a torch to see in through it. move the mic slightly around this area and try and find a nice sweet spot where it sounds best. i usually get a mate to play guitar while i move the mic around with headphones on.
try also miking different speakers as they will all sound different, if the bottom ones sound to bassy put the cab on a crate to get it off the ground. with the volume obviously you need to drive the amp fairly hard to get good sound but not thrash it, you can hear your recorded track afterwards if its too loud, it will sound like puss.
not familiar with those units you speak of, are you getting your distortion from the head or your addiotnal units?
Also not familiar with the gauge strings you use. if you were tuned to E you could go as low as 10/46's but i would think 10/48's would sound good.
i play metal and i think alot of people out there think that the thicker the string the heavier the sound, well that is a matter of perception, i do know that you get less sustain and much less clarity.
with the bass thing you wanna turn it right down on the amp. you can up it a bit later if needed. bass from guitars can kill the mix real quick. it just destroys and muds up clarity, makes it hard for the rest of the instruments to shine through. any eq's for that matter that are over the top. get it sounding how you want it before you record. do a few test runs.
the mic you are using is it a shure sm57 dynamic instrument mic?
Jan 30, 2008 05:03 am Im basically getting 60/40 distortion from the amp and pedals respectively. The pedals are Boss (DS-2 Turbo Dist and OD-2 Turbo Overdrive) and the Microamp is basically a booster made by Dunlop. Now that ive turned the preamp volume down on the amp it has made a difference. Im getting more overdrive from the power tubes rather than relying the preamp section and using the pedal to put some thickness and sustain back into it and create more harmonic overtones.
The strings are made by Ernie Ball and are called Beefy Slinky's. They basically are as follows. 54 42 30 22 15 11. I know that thicker strings give a bigger sound (I know from experience), but I didnt really know that they gave less sustain, i honestly thought otherwise, though I can see that they dont have as much clarity. Yes the mic I am using is the SM57 Dynamic Instrument mic and its the BETA version so its the better one. Ive got a SM58 Beta vocal mic also that I was thinking of using to blend in with the mix but it may muddy it up. Anymore suggestions or ideas would be great dude, but thanks for the help so far. Putting the mic on an angle has helped clean things up a little and my sound is improving. Though im not %100 satisfied (i'd say %85, better than %0 though). Cheers, Boe
N.B ive been using the OD-2 as it blends in with the amp nicer.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2008 08:08 am whatever you gotta do to get the amp sound ya want.
Are you tuned to E? if so i would most definatley go down in strings to at least a 50 being your thickest string, it will really make the differnce. but at the end of the day its up to you.
when you record too, try playing the same thing a coulpe times on 2 different tracks and make sure they are relitavley tight with one another, then play them back, you will hear the guitar sound heaps thicker. play around with the eq's making the 2 different and play with the volumes.
i've managed to do 4 at once tight and the thickness is sweet. it all depends on how chunky and heavy sounding you want it.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2008 08:16 am oh yeah, also if your sound becomes too smooth after recording multiple tracks, turn some distortion off the guitars and record em again. when there is too much on guitars and you have multilpe tracks it can really smooth em out too much
Jan 30, 2008 06:24 pm Yeah im tuned to E so theres some tension in those strings of mine. I guess heavy strings with gain isnt the best combo. They sound great for blues though. I have been multitracking and panning both parts hard left and hard right and that sounds sweet. But I guess the hardest problem is making the tracks as tight as possible with each other. (So many takes :( ). If anyone else has some other advice that would be sweet too, though I think Deons covered quiet a bit, thanks again dude. Cheers, Boe
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 30, 2008 06:33 pm This looks pretty good for reference. I personally believe mic placement is going to resolve your 99% of your issue. Not only off axis, but at the right position. Deon is spot on in regards to layering and thickness. A cheap trick I used to do when I could not match the guitar track... I'd copy and paste the original guitar track to a second track and then offset it by a few milliseconds.
www.mrdwab.com/john/Recording.html
p.s. Your amp won't hurt that SM58 as far as I know.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 30, 2008 06:42 pm [quote]My amp is EQ'ed as following.
Presence:6, Bass:5.5, Mid:6, Treble:8, Master Volume:9, Preamp Volume:8[/quote]
The preamp gain and presence settings are probably big parts of your problem. When you use lots of distortion (especially the raging distortion that would result from turning your preamp gain up to 8) it just turns to sonic mush when recorded. If you listen carefully to albums with guitar tone that you like, you'll start to notice that they don't actually use a ton of distortion. Back off on the preamp gain, clean up that signal some, and you'll be amazed at how big and dirty it can still sound when recorded.
Your EQ is good. You don't scoop the mids, which is a great first step to getting more clarity and definition on tape.
You've got an awesome setup, and its pretty similar to mine. I run a LP Classic into a Traynor YCV80 and a HotPlate. That setup is certainly capable of some sweet, singing, yet raging distortion.
I always keep the preamp gain down below 5, almost always below 4. When you crank your amp's master volume, you're distorting your power tubes, which is where the good, smooth distortion comes from. You don't really need to supplement that with a lot of preamp gain (which is harsher, fizzier distortion).
I recently got an Ibanez TS9 Tube Screamer, and it provides WAY better preamp gain than my amp does. I can turn my preamp gain down to 2 or 3 and use the Tube Screamer's overdrive to replace it. Oh boy do I love how it sounds!
Also don't forget about replacing your power tubes regularly if you gig with your amp a lot (also because you have a HotPlate and run your amp wide open all the time...you'll go through tubes more quickly than some people). The brand of tubes can make a pretty big difference in the qualities of distortion that you get. Most amps ship with tubes known for their durability, not for their superlative tone. I retubed my Traynor with JJ tubes from Eurotubes and it did wonders for my amp (which shipped with Sovteks in the preamp and power section).
Jan 30, 2008 07:04 pm Yeah mic placement helped heaps. Though I made the mistake in the first place by reading to many guides. They all basically said, for the best rounded tone go 3-4 inches off the grill and in the centre. Preamp volume did change things a heap and yes I HATE scooping mids. I laugh when my friends who play metal come off stage and I say "couldnt hear you"......"but my amp was turned up all the way" lol SCOOPED MIDS. Anyhow.... The preamp gain is down around to 6 now so its still got a bit of sting but is much clearer. My amp is retubed with JJ's and has just had a service......JCM800's rock dude. And awesome idea about copying and pasting the track, I never even contemplated that. Thanks for your help every one.....keep the advice rolling if you can. Cheers, Boe
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 30, 2008 07:39 pm I actually run mids around 7, bass at 4 and highs around 5 on my vox. Three cheers for people who realize distorted guitar is all about the mids :)
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Jan 30, 2008 08:35 pm i totally agree, mids are the go, tis where the crunch is. bass if fa kick and bass guitar and tops for cymbals hats n vox, i go by that as a general guide till i gotta tweak.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 31, 2008 01:05 pm Guess I should mention, I keep the bass on 4 because I am a neck pickup guy. I like the fat creamy tone ala QOTSA and old Kyuss Albums (Kyuss actually played their distorted guitars through bass amps).
