Jan 08, 2007 08:47 am personally I would get the shure set and an extra SM57.
However I normally record at the moment with 2 Rode NT1 over heads, and triggered snare and kick. But it's been a while sence I've even recorded too :)
entry level drum mics
Posted on Jan 08, 2007 02:42 am
Brian167
Member Since: Jan 08, 2007
I am purchasing my first set of drum mics and I have a few questions.
I have been looking at complete drum mic sets, as well as individual mics. I don't have unlimited financial resources, but I'd rather spend a little extra money on decent mics b/c I will be using them primarily to record my own music. I wanna make sure that the recording sounds as good as possible (without spending much more than $300).
My kit is a pretty standard rock setup. 1 snare, 1 kick, 3 toms, 2 crashes, 1 ride, 1 pair hi hats, 1 china trash.
Would I be better to buy a 7 piece pre-packaged mic kit, or should I focus on 2 good condersers for overheads, along with a decent snare mic (SM57) and a decent kick mic?
I know everyone has their personal opinion on this issue. Can I get a full sounding recording out of just 4 strategically placed mics?
Here are links for some examples of mic packs that I've seen:
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear CAD Pro 7-piece ($150)
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear CAD Premium 7-piece ($220)
www.samash.com/catalog/sh...ysubsearch=true Samson Q 7-piece ($250)
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear Audix Fusion 7-piece ($400)
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear Shure PG 6-piece ($400)
So what does everyone think? Does anyone have any experience with those mic packages (or any other sets)? Obviously I'd like to save a little money if one of those packages is actually decent.
It might be important to mention that these mics will be used primarily for recording, and not for live applications. I know some cheaper mics might sound good live, but don't record well.
Thanks in advance for your help. I really appreciate any advice you can offer.
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Jan 08, 2007 08:47 am personally I would get the shure set and an extra SM57.
However I normally record at the moment with 2 Rode NT1 over heads, and triggered snare and kick. But it's been a while sence I've even recorded too :)
Jan 08, 2007 10:14 am When I recorded my drums I used only four mics and got a decent sound. I used one mic each for kick, snare, and floor tom, split one mic between the two rack toms, and used careful panning. But my cymbals were placed fairly low, so they bled through just enough, without being too loud. If you have your cymbals mounted very far from the drums, you may want overheads.
Jan 08, 2007 12:34 pm Thanks guys.
Herb, what mics did you use on your 4 mic setup? I'm assuming you wouldn't use condensers so close to the sound source. Thanks again!
Jan 08, 2007 12:55 pm I used a Sennheiser 421 on the kick, and Shure SM57s for the rest. Some people disagree with using a 421 on kick drums, but I got a killer sound out of it. I also tweaked the highs a little on the 57s to bring out the cymbals.
You're right about not using condensers for close drum micing. Kablooey.
Jan 08, 2007 01:21 pm OK, I just found a Shure mic package with 1 Beta 52 and 3 SM57's for $400.
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear -There it is
I think that might be the way to go for a 4 mic array. Any other opinions are certainly welcome. Thanks!
Jan 08, 2007 01:31 pm Looks good, Brian. I love Musicians Friend.
Jan 08, 2007 01:41 pm That Shure package sounds pretty decent. Another thing you can pick up on the cheap that sounds pretty darn good are a matched pair of the C2's from Behringer, they would definitely compliment your drum recordings and only hit you for an extra $50. I used them as OH's for the last 1.5 years, they were more than worth the money and get nice reviews.
www.zzounds.com/item--BEHC2
Jan 08, 2007 02:00 pm Wow that's a ridiculous deal for a pair of condensers.
Jan 08, 2007 02:04 pm Indeed :) Worth it though.
Jan 08, 2007 02:51 pm I'd definitely suggest gettig some small diaphragm condensors for the overheads. Dynamic mics just don't capture the same "shimmer" of the cymbals.
A good kick mic, a SM57 for the snare, and a pair of SDCs for the overheads are definitely capable of making excellent drum recordings. The only hole that leaves is capturing the toms, which dont come through with very much authority on the overheads. But when you start adding more mics, you also add more complexity. I'd start with the basic 4 and expand there as your needs grow.
Jan 08, 2007 03:06 pm With overheads it's really easy to get a "cymbal happy" mix very quickly. It'll make you think about your technique very quickly as well.
Jan 08, 2007 03:44 pm Yeah, using that recorderman technique I was amazed at the cymbal clairty from those C2's. And also, the toms aren't as powerfull as say close mic'd toms, but they did indeed come through at an audible level.
What I did when running only kick, snare and the OH's. I inserted the Stereo OH tracks twice and used a multiband compressor to bring out the highs on one stereo signal and bring out the lows on the other. This helped boom up the toms a bit.
Jan 08, 2007 11:42 pm Thanks guys.
I have read in many other threads that small diaphragm condensers work better than large diaphragm condensers (for overheads). If this is true, what makes a small diaphragm better? Is there less bleed? Please explain.
Also, are large diaphragm condensers better suited for recording vocals (compared to small diaphragm)? It would be nice to be able to use a few of the mics for more than just drums. Thanks again for all your help.
Jan 09, 2007 10:07 am All else being equal (which of course it never is), small-diaphragm mics will have less off-axis coloration than LDCs, and they are generally more accurate (faster). Their down side is noise, but that shouldn't be a factor in drum overheads. LDC mics aren't quite as articulate, but they can handle higher SPLs, and are better suited for vocals.
Jan 09, 2007 09:58 pm Yep, SDC's are just more articulate in picking up the higher end like the brass on a drum kit. Now that isn't always what someone wants but inmost cases it works a charm. I also use them on Acoustic guitar and have even used them for distance mic's on guitar cabinets as well.
Jan 10, 2007 12:34 am I have only recorded drums once... but when I did I used two AKG C1000S mics overhead, and I put an MXL 990 about 30 feet from the kit. Turned out pretty good.
Jan 10, 2007 05:14 pm I'm back to using dynamics as OHs at the moment, too much high end was hurting my ears and my mixes.
Jan 10, 2007 05:18 pm Rigsby, if there is too much cymbal in your drum mix, its usually a matter of technique on the drummer's part. Most drummers want to bash the hell out of all of the brass, but all that does is hurt people's ears and drown out the rest of the kit. Ease up on the brass and the rest of the kit sounds bigger and better as a result. Advice straight from John Bonham!
Jan 10, 2007 06:01 pm It is possible for condensers to be too harsh and strident sounding. If you want to get really picky, if one is looking for a realistic sound from an "audience" standpoint, the cymbals and drums should be miced from the front. But let's face it, we can't all be Tom Dowd.
Jan 10, 2007 09:25 pm I read the same thing Tad. Pound the skins hard and lighten up on the brass, especially during recording sessions.
Jan 11, 2007 12:07 pm For the record - horns are brass, cymbals are bronze. Unless you get your cymbals at Wal-Mart, in which case you wouldn't want to mic them anyway! ;-)
Jan 11, 2007 12:12 pm hey man... walmart ain't all bad. Guitar I play most nowadays is indeed a first act, and I love it! :)
Jan 11, 2007 01:29 pm It's just a saying Herb. Footballs aren't made of pigskin, guitar strings aren't made of catgut, cymbals aren't made of brass.
Or are footballs made of pigskin? Hmmm...
Jan 11, 2007 01:41 pm Do guitar players where you are still call strings "catgut"? Wow. Well, as we get farther and farther off topic...
www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_121.html
Jan 11, 2007 02:02 pm Ya know, I think I'll start calling them Catgut. It's always fun to bring something back, like parachute pants...
Jan 13, 2007 12:57 am OK, due to money issues, I cannot afford to get a mixer and a full set of drum mics right this moment. However, I am anxious to record my band (with myself as engineer for the 1st time ever).
This is my plan...I will use the 4 channel PA head we've been using for rehearsals as a makeshift mixing console. The signal from the PA head will be sent to my 4 month old iMac. (2Ghz Intel Duo Core processor, 160 GB hard drive, factory standard sound card).
Please avoid the Mac vs. PC argument. It's what I have, so I'm gonna use it. I will use GarageBand for tracking and Audacity 1.3.0 for mastering, etc. Positive suggestions for using Audacity to master would be great. Should I use just one of these programs for everything? Any other FREE recording software for Mac I should check out?
With only 4 channels available on the PA, I can only use 4 mics to capture the drums. I think I will get the $400 Shure mic package that I mentioned much earlier in this thread...one BETA52 and three SM57's. I know the SM57's are not condensers, so they are not IDEAL for overheads, but can this setup produce "decent" results?
Would it be better to mic the snare and kick and use the other 2 SM57's for OH's, or should I use Herb's suggestion of placing SM57's on the snare, between the two rack toms, and on the floor tom (with low hanging cymbals)? If I use the 57's for OH's, would a wind screen improve the sound? What about with Herb's setup? I'm buying windscreens for recording the vox anyway, so just curious about their pros/cons for drum recording.
At some point I will be buying a real mixer, more mics, better recording and mastering software, but I'm breaking the bank on the drum mics, so this seems like my best option.
If you've made it this far, you're an absolute saint. Thanks for reading this, even if you have no advice to offer. I know there's a lot of questions in here, so please answer any you can...or just as many as you have time for.
Thanks so much for all your help! I'm quite the novice when it comes to recording. (Understatement of the year)
Jan 13, 2007 02:17 am You won't get a "PC snob attitude" from me. Macs are held as the standard of the industry by many knowledgeable people, for a lot of good reasons. No reason to be defensive for your choice there, and the specs on yours are definitely worthy of the task. You seem to be thoughtful, and committed to having your system sound good.
I think the Shure package you're considering will serve you well.
For the snare mic, angle it in between the snare and the hat, pointing at the rim of the snare, about at the level of the high hat, thinking about how hard you hit each instrument. This will help balance the levels between the two. Don't hit the hat too hard. You can adjust angles and distances accordingly.
For the top drums, my recommendation - and it's one opinion of many - is that you should get the other two focused on the toms - one between the rack toms, and the other on the floor tom. If you position them correctly, while mindful of their proximity to the cymbals and the directional characteristics of the SM57, you'll be OK. Record a few takes as you play with different angles and distances between things. You'll be surprised! The cymbals can actually sound good with dynamic microphones if you use your ears and imagination, and throw away the windscreens.
Kick drum - hey, just tune it nicely and put a mic in front of it or inside it. That bad boy -should- speak for itself if you taught it how to..
Herb
As for the mastering questions, I'll let the experts take over.
Jan 14, 2007 10:14 am Hi, Brian.
Let me come out and say that I feel your pain, because recording drums can be tedious, at best, and it's real easy to go crazy wanting to mic everything.
I put up a drum track here once that I recorded with a two-mic set-up, just for experimental purposes. I thought I'd put it up for you, too, not because it's any great shakes, but just to show you what's possible with a minimal budget.
The drum track was recorded with two mics, a Beta 52 in the kick, and an sm57 tucked between the two upper toms, facing up away from the snare drum. The two tracks were premixed down to one using a cheap Yamaha MG10 mixer, which was then routed to a Fostex MR-8. The guitar track was on the other Fostex channel recorded live in an untreated cinder-block basement. I overdubbed a bass track later, DI, just to fill it out.
Anyhoo, it's a really long "song idea", and a first take, to boot, so don't judge the playing too harshly!
www.soundclick.com/bands/...m?bandID=601070
It's the second song down, titled "2 mic drum technique".
Jan 14, 2007 01:05 pm That actually sounds pretty good with just 2 mics. That definitely makes me a little more confident about using 4, especially b/c you used the same mics I'll use. Thanks for the link JF.
Jan 14, 2007 02:44 pm Anytime, man. I'm looking forward to hearing some samples from your set-up.
Jan 14, 2007 04:02 pm Here's a quote from an interview with the legendary Tom Dowd:
"The first console that we made our records on at Atlantic from 1950 until 1954 had four inputs. That was the whole nine yards, four inputs. People used to say to me, "How the hell do you get that drum sound? What mic do you use?" And I'd say, "I don't have a mic within ten feet of the drums." I couldn't afford one - the damn drums were leaking in every place else I got. I didn't have any control on what the drums were doing. [Laughs.] But people would try and emulate that and they've got 17 mics on the drums!"
Just thought I'd share that.
Jan 14, 2007 07:48 pm Good food for thought.
I know the more mics/tracks I dedicate to my drums, the more I tend to overprocess everything, too. It's a real hang-up, sometimes, and can make the final mix a real pain.
Jan 14, 2007 08:44 pm Yep, I've done the single drum mic and gotten great results. Its not the kind of set up you want to run for todays heavy rock though really. But for jazz and the like, a single mic can give you that really cool open sound. You just have to take some care in how you EQ and touch it up with the effects and reverb.
Jan 14, 2007 10:39 pm Yeah, my sound is more on the hard rock/ punk side of things, so I'll probably use more than one mic. However, it is good to know that more mics isn't always the best solution. Fewer tracks should also make the mixing process easier for me, seeing as I'm somewhat of an amateur.
Jan 15, 2007 04:42 am I like that ditty Omaly, cool riffage man.
Jan 15, 2007 04:07 pm Hey thanks, Captain! I can't take credit for that guitar part, though, it's my buddy Mark playing. I just hit the skins and overdubbed some bass.
Boy, would I love to find a singer!
Jan 15, 2007 08:29 pm Omalycat, that is a great recording. Just a pure jam all the way. I could not get up out of my chair for the entire 8 plus minutes as I was kinda mesmorised (sp). It reminded me of the summers between 1969 and 1972. The local fire house would move their trucks out and give the teens the space to have bands and what ever for a Friday and Saturday night. And that is the sound that emanated from the fire house on those nights. All your missing from the nights we played would be key's, a Hammond B3 and Farfisa to be exact. And yes, the bare concrete is probably what made the sound so cool back then and now on your track.
But honestly you got a very kool drum sound, I loved the snare when you really smacked it, nice echoing pop to it. But the toms were the best really, that big huge room sound.
Anyway, just thought I'd let ya know you brought back some very cool memories with that sound and tune.
Noize
Jan 17, 2007 05:47 pm Wow, man.... I'm glad you liked it. :)
I'll tell my buddy, Mark, you said that and he'll be tickled to death. I'm the first drummer he's ever played with, and he's never tried to write before, so he can be tediously insecure about his playing.
Thanks again, Noize, I'm flattered.
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