Software selection help. Just want to make sure everything checks out.

> > > Software selection help. Just want to make sure everything checks out.

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Member Since: Jan 03, 2004

I'll try to make this as short as possible. I just need to be certain that, after saving for three years for this DAW/PC (yes I'm that poor lol), the software I intend to purchase is appropriate for my needs.

So, I'll list my hardware specs, my needs, what I know, and what I don't know, and hopefully some of you cool and more-knowledgeable-than-I-currently-am people can aid in my decision, lol.

WHAT I HAVE:
ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe mainboard, 3.2GHz P4 C (800MHz FSB) cpu, 2GB DDR400 physical memory in dual channel, 2 36GB 10K RPM SATA drives in RAID 0 for apps and OS, 2 120GB 7200 RPM SATA drives in RAID 1 for storage, Matrox Millenium P750 128MB AGP 8x (in 4x mode...had someissues with 8x and this isn't a machine intended for games anyway, obviously), M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI interface. Everything's optimized for low latency, and everything's on it's own IRQ. Should be way more than able to handle whatever I choose.

WHAT I KNOW:
I know most basic recording techniques, and some much more basic mastering stuff. I understand EQ and filter passes, compression, etc. I understand frequency response and all that jazz (no pun intended). I'm used to analog-to-digital and digital-to-digital recording, in general. software I've used in the past includes Sound Forge, WaveLabs, and Home Studio, but mainly I used several Roland VS-880's networked.

WHAT I DON'T KNOW:
I am cluless when it comes to softsynth implementation, MIDI editing, MIDI recording, etc. For instance, I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to use MIDI and softsynths to create a realistic drum track. (Which is precisely what I'm going to need to be doing in addition to my usual mizing and limited mastering). But, if the capability exists within the software, I will learn it. I pick stuff up pretty quick and today's software isn't as mystifying as it was in years past.

WHAT I NEED:
Multitrack recording (duh), the basic effects processing capabilities that most anyone would make use of, atleast 24-bit/96khz capability. I insist on MULTIBAND compression, because my music has tons of dynamic range (lots of orchestral and classical-esque stuff) and I don't want to sacrifice any of it. which is why I'm leaning toward SONAR 3 PE (for the inclusion sonitus). I need some dither. I would prefer graphic EQ to parametric, but I've used both. Etc. etc.

Anyhow, as I intimated earlier, I want to get into MIDI. I understand it in it's most rudementary sense. But like I said, if the capability exists in the software, I can learn. I primarily want to create original and complex drum tracks viaMIDI and softsynths. I need to be able to do this both via editing, and in real time sometimes via a MIDI controller/keyboard. i.e. sometimes I'll want to use a softsynth or an existing patch on my keyboard and play it cold, and other times I'll want to construct patterns manually. It's crucial that I be able to do both. (I know...I'm weird. Lol).

So the question basically is, can SONAR 3 PE do this or am I going to need additional software?

I want to be able to load virtual instruments as well (I am still hunting for a sample quality Bosendorfer grand piano VE or softsynth that I can use) and actually play them from my keyboards, and record them. So I guess what I'm asking is, can you only apply VE's and softsynths after a MIDI track has already been recorder, or can you use them in real time as you play, and record them just as I could any existing instrument patch on my keyboards?

And, can SONAR 3 PE accomplish this? I already know it's up to the job as far as my other needs go.

Thanks VERY much in advance to anyone who can help me in choosing my software. after three years of saving (after my old pc exploded...literally...don't ask lol) and research andlearning this "craft" (though I'm hardly good enough to call it that...yet. Lol) I just want to get everything I'll need and not run into any limitations. I want to learn new things and make music, not fret about what my software suite can and can't let me do, y'know what I mean?

:)

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Cone Poker
Member
Since: Apr 07, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 02:19 pm

Yeah Sonar 3 will be more than capable of recording multitrack audio, midi events, running softsynths, and software events. In fact sonar 3 is what a few of us are using right now. As far as MIDI goes, I know a little on the subject, but Noize is our resident MIDI guru. So I think if recording mulitrack audio, recording MIDI data and using softsynths, and using soft effects is what you need Sonar is one of the best programs out there for the money right now.

If this is what you decide on please go through the links from this site to Musicians Friend to help support the site.

And if you have any more questions feel free to post.

Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 03, 2004 02:24 pm

Thanks very much. I'm sure I'll havealot of questions for Noiz once I purchase the software then with respect to MIDI lol. (hopefully I won't drive him nuts). I will definitely click through to Musician's Friend. I am a strong believer in user groups like this one. Musician-to-musician education and forums like this are very powerful and intuitive learning tools and I suport them and appreciate them 100%

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 02:48 pm

bensf81, I am a Sonar 3 PE user and it does everything you are asking about and plenty more. The only real shortcoming I see thus far is lack of 5.1 surround support. Other than that I belive it's a very complete, high-performance application that I have done a lot with myself. I use alot of Softsynths, both DXi and VSTi and it handles them all very well.

I know Noize2u, another admin here uses it as well and is a very big MIDI geek and serious softsynth user and it handles all his MIDI/Softsynth needs, some of which are VERY outlandish...

I also use the Audiophile 2496 and I will tell you right now to go to m-audio.com and be sure to download the recently released driver update because it does fix a bug which has gotten me a few times in regards to MIDI and softsynths. That bug being that if ONLY MIDI data is playing (which a softsynth IS) sometimes all the MIDI will turn itself off...but the newest drivers fixed that problem.

And welcome to HRC! We are always glad to see a new face...

Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 03, 2004 03:12 pm

Thanks! I will be sure to do that. (That sounds like one of those situations where if hadn't known in advance about that I'd be freaking out like a chicken with it's head off lol).

I'm a classic example of someone who loves music more than life itself, knows atleast reasonably well what he's doing, but is financially screwed and therefore learning things at age 22 that he probably would/should have otherwise learned when he started out at age 16 lmao.

I'm just so happy to finally be reaching a point where I can do almost anything I can imagine musically y'know? Because it sure sounds like that's what we're able to do nowadays. i am very excited. It doesn't matter how long it takes me to learn something, it's just like learing an instrument. I'mvery patient. I believe patience comes with loving something, just like a person. You're very forgiving of them the more you love them. So I look forward to all the trial and error and learning process with Sonar. :)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 03:58 pm

Well, do you realize Eric Clapton never event picked up a guitar until he was 17...age doesn't matter, it's not when you make music, it's just that you make it and have fun doing it.

Sonar, for me, has been a very enjoyable environment, user-friendly and powerful. version 3 added amany new features and overhauled it by giving it a way fresher more polished look, which, if you are in the studio staring at it all day, really matters.

And in the next day or two version 3.1 (free update for 3 owners) is coming out with dozens of bug fixes and a few new features...

but alas, still no 5.1...grrrrrr...

Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 03, 2004 04:38 pm

Yeah I agree. And Jimi Hendrix didn't know jack about music compared to most musicians, yet probably changed music more than most people I can think of. Sometimes a lack of FORMAL knowledge breeds creativity, right? :)

I just have an "I'm always catching up but never caught up" complex I guess lol. But I really am excited.

Yeah from the screenshots Sonar 3 looks like I'll be able to find my way around in it ok. And I agree, it really does just LOOK awesome from a purely aesthetic point of view too.

It'll go great on my LCD monitor. hehe.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Jan 03, 2004 07:21 pm

db what is this bug in the audiophile? i've never had a single problem with the card and i've never updated the drivers (got the card last year).

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 08:02 pm

Hello bensf81, and welcome to HRC. It looks like most of your questions were answered so I wont blather on about most of the stuff. You will definately be able to do a lot with Sonar 3 PE. You will find the manual a pretty good start, but they do also have a great tutorial run through, one of the best of all the high end DAWs out there. And they now have very well packed FAQ and tutorial section on their website as well. But odds are the book and the tutes on the disc will be more then enough as it sounds as though you learn quickly.

As far as the tools, S3PE has a very good arsenal of everything you mentioned, save for the Bosendorfer. I have yet to find one that compared to the one I use in SampleCell, which is hardwarre sampler that runs in the PC. But I may be giving that up soon. There are some good ones out there that you will be able to load into the V-Sampler that comes with S3PE so that is a saving grace.

Along with that I will state right now, that yes you can play your virtual instruments in real time with low latency. And Cakewalk has one of the best audio engines out there for doing just that, palying software synths and samplers live. You will also find you can automate just about anything you wish in Sonar, I use midi via Sonar to run my whole studio right from my chair. (well everthing that is midi anyway)

As far as step writing and the like, you have several editing screens like the piano roll, a staff view, and the event list which shows every event available, and yo can assign what you want it to show. You can draw in automation on audio and midi tracks for almost everything.

You may also in the future want to look at Project 5 as well. I use it rewired to Sonar and it has a few more softsynths as well as samplers, drum samplers and synths, and several DSP FX that are out of this world.

If we missed anything here by all means let us know. I think you will be pleased with the performance of S3PE since it looks as though you have been using Cakewalk products allready. And feel free to bug me about midi, thats what were here for. My response might be slow once in a while but usually someone will alert me if I miss a post that needs my attention.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 08:52 pm

forty, it is a documented prob that I experienced often with MID/Softsynths. If the song starts with ONLY Midi data and NO audio (which I commonly do starting with 4 or 8 side stick hits, MIDI will shut off and not return. Not even when audio starts in.

I have had thathappen many times myself.

Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 03, 2004 09:30 pm

To Noize: Thanks for your vote of confidence in Sonar. Hearing how highly regarded it is definitely eases my mind and gives me alot more reassurance.

It's good to know that softsynths are basically exactly what I thought; extra instruments for my keyboards. But upon further research across the net, I've also learned that you can step recording in a sense via MIDI as well. There's no limit to what we can do with this stuff apparently lol. Great, and amazing.

You see, I had about a four or five year gap where my gear all sort of kind of well...exploded. (Long story lol). And I haven't had the money to get anything even remotely like what I used to use (four Roland VS-880's, and a now antiquaited but at the time state of the art pc lol. I will always look upon that set-up with fond memories). So I've missed alot. But I tried to not get too behind the curve by using the less expensive sofware I mentioned (though I wouldn't consider waveLabs cheap lol) on a good but less efficient pc with a crappy sound card. That's one reason I took a "too much is better than not enough" approach to building this new system. Next I need to replace my aging and very low-end ksyboards, which while passable when used in tandem, really aren't up to where I want to be. (Hence the desire to use softsynths alot until I can get a good one..leaning towards a Yamaha Motif ES at the moment). gonna take quite a while to save forthat too but I want to have equipment and a system that will last a good long time and serve my needs for years without the need for too much upgrading. I'd rather spend alot now than spend more in the long run in the next decade.

To dbMaster: I definitely would freak out if that happened and I hadn't been warned before hand lol. I'm glad M-Audio has frequent driver updates and pretty good support.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jan 03, 2004 09:48 pm

I too came from a rather large hardware set up into the digital world with the PC. I had a rather large collection of hardware all tied together via midi running of several hardware sequancers tied to an analog 16 track tape machine. I edged into the computer part slowly and finally took the plunge when Cakewalk came out with their first audio/midi software. I havent looked back. I have been using their product since the first sequancer program for the Atari computers. So I am more then happy to help anyone who wants to jump in head first.


Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 04, 2004 12:00 am

ATARI! man. That takes me back.

only I just played their games. Lol.

Cone Poker
Member
Since: Apr 07, 2002

Jan 04, 2004 12:42 am

Noize- Did you get my private message in HRC pro?

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Jan 04, 2004 05:50 am

Ya, I was freaking out when my softsynths would disappear and stuff, trying to figure out what the problem was...it was weird.

M-Audio has very frequent updates, their drivers and control panel are very good, that MIDI thing is actually the first real problem I have ever encountered with their drivers, plus each card work with ASIO, WDM and MME/DirectSound standards (ASIO being by far the best performance). They're the bomb! I highly recommend them.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jan 04, 2004 05:10 pm

Nope, didnt get it Loki.

Bensf, the Atari is what I learned to sequance on major league. I had it hooked up to several Alesis MMT-8s and then locked to my 16 track with a sync box. Those were the days, sweatin bullits prayin that nothing jittered or dropped out.

Member
Since: Jan 03, 2004

Jan 05, 2004 05:35 am

Wow. That's amazing. I honestly never even knew it had that capability. But, nailbiting set ups like the one you describe are why I joked in the other thread "1.5ms? where's the challenge in that?" lol. Granted my old pc was crap by today's standards but even 10ms seems insanely low to me now. I feel old lol.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Jan 05, 2004 05:49 am

There is actually true zero latency recording out there...but I am very happy with 10, I could squeeze it down to 5 or so, and have, but 10 is good, plus the further you try to force it down you start dumping in to issues with crackling, dropouts and weird stuff like that, so 10 is my happy place.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Jan 06, 2004 05:51 pm

And we are all forgetting our Delta mixers,as well as the Audiophile I think from M-Audio allow us to use zero latency direct monitering. However this trick really only works well in a couple of programs, Sonar and Cubase. This is because of the high performance of the audio engines in both programs. And heck ya, I was happy to get down to 25 ms and now Im extatic.

> > > Software selection help. Just want to make sure everything checks out.

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