learning jazz
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Posted on Jul 06, 2003 07:11 pm
stinkyjoe
Member Since: Mar 20, 2003
Hey, im wondering if anyone might be able to suggest a good site for learning jazz (on guitar), maybe one with some easy-to-understand tutorials or something. ive got books with jazz scales but i also know that these alone are not very usefull because ive heard many people speak of jazz as something that is the way you play it as much as what you are playing. jazz is something that ive been wanting to get into for a few years now, but its hard to find easily understood places to start. any suggestions?
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MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 06, 2003 09:27 pm a big key to it is listening and hearing/enjoying what the jazz greats have done (or are doing). here's a cool guy to begin with:
www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.d...l=B769sa9rgb238
that's since you're looking for it on guitar. jazz is a different perspective than rock is, but you can get a grasp on it.
it's cool that you're wanting to branch out in this direction. jazz is pretty much a wonder of nature.
Jul 07, 2003 03:16 am mmmmmmm jazz, nice!
jazz is as much a feeling as a technique, although technique is important. have a listen to john maclachlan if you want to be blown away by superb jazz guitar playing.
also, see if you can jam with some jazz based artists, or watch em play, then you'll see how they do.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jul 07, 2003 10:00 am I go with PixelPixie. Get involved with musicians that play jazz or swing. These are two very closely related genres. While rock and country have a tendency to be very on the beat genres, swing and jazz move beyond that and require a feel for offset rythums. It is a facinating genre. The percision is still there. It can not be sloppy. But the rules are very flexable. Getting involved is the only way.
Jul 07, 2003 12:15 pm yup, suck it and see!
Jul 07, 2003 05:14 pm yeah, jazz seems like a huge mountain to climb, its just intimidating because when you listen to these musicians, there is just so much going on, but i guess the best thing to do is just jump in and try some of it.
Jul 08, 2003 04:13 am jazz is wonderful. my suggestion would be to learn the right theory in the right order, and don't get misled by thinking there's a ton of stuff to memorize...there isn't. there is only the foundation, and only then comes articulation. many books will try to make you believe that the particulars, the window dressings, are the things that you'll have to memorize, but if you learn in the right order, they can be things that naturally evolve from out of your base of understanding.
i haven't tried much jazz, but i've read books on the theory of jazz as i was doing my own research on theory, which was inspired by a mad quest to understand modes once and for all. the things i learned along the way enabled me to start playing the one jazz song i care about--"on green dolphin street"--on the fly from just the chord symbols on a fake sheet. i can read standard printed music, but too slowly to be satisfying--my eye hasn't learned to recognize the staff lines without the little memory devices. so as a random result of my reading, i've discovered some shortcuts that helped me with jazz. dolphin street has some complicated chords--flat 5 flat 13 and all kinds of weird stuff. but if you can bypass all the junk that most books feed you, you can learn how to quickly form those chords without first memorizing them, and you can do it in any key.
so dont get bogged down in memorizing scales. it will take years to emerge from that. what i did was memorize one--the major scale--and then i learned to think of all other scales as departures from the major scale, following simple rules that are more easily remembered. same thing with modes, which are important in jazz. this shortcut took me years to figure out, and if i had known how chords are built from scales at the very outset, i would have saved those years.
also, if you don't already know how, learn to think in terms of key. you'll need to know the roman numeral system of chord designation. it's the language jazz musicians speak. a typical jazz progression--the arhetypal one if i remember correctly, is iim7, V7, I. once you can learn what this means, your problems will be 75 percent over.
i have a small webpage devoted to the basic levels of theory i've found most important. it is by no means complete--one of the major things i've left out that will be invaluable in jazz is the circle of fifths. the page is just a rough draft of some basic principles, but i've truly benefited from this style of thinking. if you want, you can check it out at:
www32.brinkster.com/placeholder
good luck
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jul 08, 2003 10:36 am Fortymile speaks the truth! As well as understanding new rythum concepts, you also must know chord structures. Be it via modal or conventional terms if you don't flat your third in a minor chord you will have a bunch of jazz musicians covering their ears and running away in agony. Jazz is not something you jump into and do unless you are sevant. You have to enjoy the jurney as there is no final destination. It is extreamly satisfying for me as it gives me more "room" than any other genre. As a bassist that is important to me as most genres are very confining for the bass. I highly recomend doing a lot of listening and counting as you listen. Are they playing in two or six-eight with a two feel? Do they throw in a measure of five-four in each phrase? Where is the beat? How is it maintained? Jazz is huge. Every other genre is part of jazz. That can be daunting or liberating, your choice. Don't be afraid to start small. It is truely a journey. Not a destonation.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jul 09, 2003 12:26 pm This thread has been bugging me for two days. So I will type in my dribble for me to get it out of my head. As to whether or no it is worth typing; I guess it matters not.
IMO, only, no more.
Genre is a "cute" word. It is good for the listener who wants to hear something similar to what he or she has heard before. It can be usefull to the musician to get an idea of style. To the artist it is pretty usless. Music gets put into a bucket because someone has decided it sounds a little bit like something else performed before, or because the previous music a group has played has always been put into that bucket. For example a very old clasic Moon River for demonstration purposes. Square it up and take out the Um-Pa-Pa feel and it could be dropped into the Rock ballad bucket, although the paper it is written on claims it is a waltz. Add a Texas twang and move over to Country. Push and pull the phrasing and wallah!....Jazz! I'm pretty sure a clasical arranger cound get it jammed into his or her bucket as well with a little effert.
My point is this: The mysticism and pedistalization surrounding the genre called jazz is somewhat smoke and mirrors. That is not to say that the musicians you hear are not very accomplished. The basics are the same. You hear music. Your mind's ear plays something else. You work untill you produce that something else. Do not fear Jazz. It is music. Just do it! Take the time you need and persue it. Play what your mind's ear plays for you. Let someone else put it in a bucket.
Jul 09, 2003 03:05 pm yeah, man, i agree with that for the most part.
the only thing about jazz is, those odd chords can turn you away from jazz for a lifetime unless you find a way to deal with them. jazz is pretty much all different kinds of seventh chords with extensions. it can be difficult enough on piano... but you have choices to make on guitar that you dont have to make on piano. since a guitar only has 6 strings, you have to start making decisions as to what notes you want to include in a complicated chord--you can't include them all. so you have to learn to edit and spell your own chords as you go, making decisions. do you want to include the sharp ninth at the expense of the fifth maybe? how about knock out the 11th so you can use the 13th? that sort of thing. that requires you to either: memorize all chords in all keys, in which case you won't have to think this way (but you'll sacrifice time and miss knowledge that could really help you in your journey), memorize the fretboard (wish i had by now) or memorize how intervals work (this has worked for me just fine.)
one thing you can do when youre beginning to learn jazz is simply ignore all 7th notes and chord extensions. just get the triads right--most of them will be minor, major, or diminished. if you do that, you can start playing along to jazz using your current chord vocabulary. it will sound less complex, but you will see how jazz really isnt all that different from other genres, as walt mentions. after you get comfortable with that, pick up a good book on chord construction using scale steps and intervals. the best one for guitar i've seen is songwriting for guitar by rikky rooksby. a fantastic general purpose music theory book is called 'how to write music for hit songs.' i forget the author. unimpressive title, i know. but it'll fill in all the blanks for you so that you can learn how to add chord extensions to all your basic rock chords without having to memorize a bunch of new junk.
if you have any questions please dont hesitate to ask here in the forum. i dont know if this is coming across clearly but i do like to talk about it and i think the others do too.
Jul 09, 2003 04:22 pm thanks for the replies. im just looking for a good place to start, and youve all got some helpfull ideas. i know im not going to just "get" it all right away, but if i start at a good place (i like the idea about starting with simple triads, not so intimidating) and keep inching along, i hope to be doing some cool stuff in a year or two (and even better stuff later). ive tried to tackle these chords and scales before, but ended up quickly frustrated and gave up on it for a while until i would try again. but my problem was partially that i viewed it as "chords and scales" and didnt really imerse myself in listening to it enough. now that im older and have been listening to "jazzy" types of music more, i want to try my hand at it again, but start slow and just focus on learning a little at a time. the john scofield and the book suggestions are helpful, they at least let me know what has influenced you guys a little and give me a couple other ideas on where to start.
Jul 09, 2003 06:54 pm chords are scales, with notes missing or altered.
its such a useful perspective, i feel going around the country and evangelizing it. if you can see the major scale from any root note on the guitar, then you can see steps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and the octave. you can know that a major triad is made of steps 1, 3, and 5. you can know that adding the 7th makes it a major 7th chord. you can then add the 9th step--thats just the second step of the scale transposed up an octave (it will fall somewhere on your high strings). so basically, if you can see this one scale from your current root location on the fretboard, you can do anything at all!
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jul 10, 2003 01:11 am Fortymile has some very good input there. Espicially if you are looking to provide primarily rythum getfiddle and not lead. In as much as most chording for the fiddle is notated in chord symbles, you can pick any root on the fretboard and use patterns for each of the chords. The root will matter not except in some instances where inversions are necessary per string arrangement.
It's all about learning and streatching. Get a good chord book and work on learning more chords. Try to get involved with groups that use those chords so you can get them imprinted. Learn to read. There's no better way to know your fingerboard. Learn how a keyboard works. With that all of the notes are layed out in front of you one by one in one long string. Great for theory. The modal approach is great ear training. There are many books on the modal approach. As you play modal scales you imprint the sounds of intervals. The process of imprinting is different for each of us, but you will eventually be able to reach for it and it will be there with little apparent thought in time.
