Burning an audio CD - Quality Variabilty?
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Posted on Mar 08, 2003 10:48 am
Mat
Music Enthusiast
Member Since: Jan 24, 2003
I don't know if this topic has ever popped up on these message boards (I am kinda new), but I was wondering if anyone knew from experience, or read somewhere, if there is any difference in quality of CD audio depending on the burner you use, the burning software, or the media itself. I just got wondering the other day...especially about the media because they are so varied. I know they sell these 'better-for-audio' CDR. Are these really better?
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Mar 08, 2003 11:13 am I haven't really found differences from burner to burner, but I have heard differences with media and the speed at which it is burned.
Burning data seems fine at any speed the burner will go, but audio I always record (or usually record) at 2x or so if it is a master burn as I have sometimes found odd anomalies when burning faster.
Mar 08, 2003 02:09 pm i've always wondered about those "audio CD-Rs" myself, i just assumed it was a goofy marketing scheme.
while we're on the suject, what's up with burning masters at 1x? i remember reading somewhere that you should always urn at 1x, and anyways, wavelab let you hear it playback on the way out so i thought there must be some reason for this. i'm guess if dB burns at 2x, then i might as well cut my time in half too.
i have a remastering project coming up next week and burning at 2x will shave an hour off the project. i think i'll give it a go.
Mar 08, 2003 02:13 pm you shouldburn at 1x, but my burner (and many modern burners) won't go that slow anymore...which is a drag.
That "audio CD" crap is a gimmick...good media is good media. It's all digital 1's and 0's...the CD can't tell the difference.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 08, 2003 05:25 pm What is people's preffered media?
BrunoThe Quiet MindedMember
Since: Jan 01, 2003
Mar 08, 2003 11:32 pm beleive me, software counts a lot. I tried several with the same media and some just didn't recorded with the same compatibility as other. I dont know if it will always occur but for shure for me it really mattered. I dont know if it can be my cd recorder too?
Mar 09, 2003 01:11 am The largest factor is the type of media, specifically the chemicals (both quality and type) used in the CDr media. Most audio CD players were designed for straight aluminum substrate (die cut) CDs, so cannot recognize the chemical 'bubble' as being a 'hole' due to frequency response (light), depending on the die and chemicals used in the CDr.
The other, most obvious thing, is the format of the data. ISO standards should be followed for best compatibility.
Speed will not affect the 'quality' of the music, unless the burn fails (either by software error or chemical error). Regardless of the fact that it is audio, it's still stored in a digital format and can be verified as 100% of the original.
W.
Mar 09, 2003 06:18 am Quote:
Speed will not affect the 'quality' of the music, unless the burn fails (either by software error or chemical error). Regardless of the fact that it is audio, it's still stored in a digital format and can be verified as 100% of the original.
As much as I respect your opinion, knowledge and the logic of that statement, it is dead wrong. I have heard fast burns and slow burns of the exact some music and heard subtle (sometimes substancial) differences between the two.
That said, it was also in the early-days of mainstream consumer burning products, so it may have been the early burners or early software, but mark my words, there WAS a difference.
Mar 09, 2003 01:55 pm TheRealWaldo and dBMasters, i know where you guys are coming from. By my understanding of digital being a bit-for-bit copy, every transfer in digital will be *indentical* to the original. For the longest time i couldn't understand how burn speed could possibly affect sound quality without causing a catastophic data loss.
However this weekend my friend burned me song (a chill ambient peice ala Aphex Twin) to CDR for me to take home and master. He told me that sometimes his burns we're "static-y", but only with audio, not with data. Sure enough I leave and start heading for home, pop in the CD, and there's tiny crunchy artifacts in the audio. Upon closer inspection on my home CD player, the static sounds like bit-cruching, also called logic distortion or bit shifting. it's a form of disortion unqiue to the digital audio world, where an audio signal is reduced by bitrate and/or sample rate and sometimes bits are "shifted" left or right causing anywhere from a slight hiss to outright noise.
this got me thinking.. maybe certrain burners start to fall behind or ahead in their rotation and aren't burning at precisely the exact time, causing CD players to loose sync on playback. I think it's called "word jitter". The faster the burn, the worse the syncro. ::shrugs:: just something to think about :O)
Mar 09, 2003 05:56 pm Quote:
unless the burn fails (either by software error or chemical error). Regardless of the fact that it is audio, it's still stored in a digital format and can be verified as 100% of the original.
If you hear a difference, then you are either using poor media, awful software, or not verifying your burns.
Read the whole post, I did not say there was absolutely no way the quality could be affected, I said the only ways were errors (software or chemical), or poor media compatibility.
W.
Mar 09, 2003 06:25 pm And in older burners, before the technology has advanced to where it is today, speed was a common cause of burn errors and fails...so yes, I see what you're saying...
Mar 09, 2003 06:12 pm A quick background on how CDr media works.
First, two chemicals are placed together that are designed to react at certain temperature and frequencies of light. Some chemicals produce a 'bubble' (read as a 1 on a drive) when the laser strikes it. 0's of course, the laser is in the 'off' position. Other chemicals react simply by changing color.
NOW, where the 'higher quality' rating comes in for chemicals is in several areas. First of all, how fast can those chemicals react? If they are too slow, then errors will occur. Obviously, the faster they can react, the faster you can burn. Second, the type of chemicals often result in colors that common CD drives cannot distinguish from. Either they are too close together, or totally undecipherable. Next, the chemical reaction in a CDr cannot be stopped once it is started, nor can it be 'paused', if the data is not recieved in contiguos stream, errors will occur.
THAT being said, a common reason why people note a difference when burning CDs is the SOURCE. If you are burning from MP3, or other compressed formats, or 'copying' a CD from one to another, you WILL almost certainly lose quality with 'default' configurations of burning software. If the source is WAV direct from the hard-drive, then you're less likely to have issues with properly configured software.
The last most common issue is people 'pumping up the speed' of their burner to beyond what their computer and transport can process the data and chuck it over to the burner.
You can also verify the media 100%. I run a duplication company, and can run off 3,000 digitally EXACT copies, and get 1 or 2 erroroneous disks. You can configure most software to do such a verification.
Now, anyone who wishes to contest this, can I ask, how come you can burn applications and data to a CD without error? They are all 0's and 1's as well, and if one 0 or 1 is out of place, they fail...
Tips for good audio burns:
- Use high grade audio rated media approved by your burner manufacturer, and rated for the speed you intend to burn. (It's not a marketing gimmick, it's a physical difference)
- Use a good burner with jitter correction, and a large internal buffer + buffer underrun protection. Make sure it's physically configured to manufacturers specs.
- Use fully configurable burning software that can burn Level 1 ISO 9660 format.
- Avoid adding 'CD text', alot of players do not recognize this, and treat it like audio, causing noticeable artifacts.
- Burn direct from your harddrive, using original WAVs.
- NEVER burn at your maximum 'rated' speed of your drive. You increase the risk of a bad burn by a large amount. Burn one under, or at the lowest speed to 'decrease' the chance of an error occuring. BURNING FASTER ONLY AFFECTS QUALITY IF AN ERROR OCCURS.
- Remove ALL applications from memory, except your burning software, and ensure no 'scheduled' events/cron jobs will run.
- Verify your media after burning it. This will compare the source to the media. If it is digitally exact, there should be ZERO noted difference in sound unless the media is not supported by the player (as I explained before). If it's not, you've got to check everything and try again.
- The 'best' thing to do? A dedicated standalone duplicator.
W.
Mar 09, 2003 06:55 pm Quote:
Now, anyone who wishes to contest this, can I ask, how come you can burn applications and data to a CD without error? They are all 0's and 1's as well, and if one 0 or 1 is out of place, they fail...
I would like to know this myself, as it does make absolutely no sense at all, but I have seen it with my own two eyes...back in the late 90's when the biggest PC was 200Mhz and the fastest burner was 4x (and they were very buggy).
I write it up to the fact that audio CD's are often times a full CD of data whereas often time data CD burns are significantly smaller with less time to get buffer underruns and other errors...but I dunno...
Mar 09, 2003 07:05 pm In the old days, people were often told to burn 'slow' when burning data, and that audio didn't matter so much.
-edit- They were also told in the old days that you could cheap out on audio media...
Most of the errors resulted from bad sources though, either the data type, or how it was sampled, or even the lack of fast transport to the burner.
W.
Mar 09, 2003 08:09 pm So what are some good CD-R's and Burning programs?
Mar 09, 2003 08:36 pm You shouldn't burn programs...unless you wrote them.
Mar 09, 2003 09:02 pm Hardeharhar... Or if they're free...
I said "and," not "for." :-)
Mar 09, 2003 09:22 pm I favor Nero, on desktop machines, for it's configurability.
As far as media, use what is rated highest by your CDr manufacturer, etc., as stated above.
W.
Mar 10, 2003 05:32 am Quote:
I said "and," not "for." :-)
DOH! sorry, I misread. I like EZ CD Creator myself, Nero never made much sense to me personally...but almost everyone else I know uses Nero.
If you run Windows XP you can burn by just dragging files to your CD-R in Windows Explorer...and it actually works pretty well.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Mar 10, 2003 01:44 pm With all this talk about burning, i was wondering if a factory installed burner is good enough for "pro quality" sound. in other words, is my pc's burner just as good as those outboard ones?
Mar 10, 2003 02:07 pm Digital should be digital, so it shouldn't matter. I guess if there's a problem in the data stream during recording then it might add artifacts to your recording, but I don't think that different burners will give you different levels of "Quality."
Mar 10, 2003 04:30 pm Purpoise, read my post above, laser frequency (comes from the drive), combined with chemicals used, plus speed, jitter, etc. are all factors. You can't tell me that you wouldn't buy one hard-drive over another, right? There is some drives that are more likely to fail, thus, there is drives that are better quality than others.
FunkDadyP> 'factory installed' narrows it down to over 20,000 types of drives. Can't help you there. Internal vs. External drives aren't different other than in their transport. For example, you wouldn't do a high speed burn with an external parrallel CDr as fast as you would internal.
W.
Mar 10, 2003 04:57 pm Well, the question is is there a difference in actual audio quality? Both hard drives would store data just as well once it actually got on the hard disk, right? Note that I'm asking a question, not challenging you're knowledge.
Mar 10, 2003 04:59 pm That question was answered quite a while ago.
Audio quality can be affected by errors, a poor quality drive is more likely to create more errors, and thus, more likely that the audio quality would be reduced.
Thus Quote:
different burners will give you different levels of "Quality."
You wouldn't buy a no-name brand hard-drive because it's more likely to fail, and NOT store your data properly. Thus, it isn't good quality.
W.
Mar 10, 2003 05:09 pm Don't get me wrong, I read this whole thread beforehand, but It just doesn't seem to make sense to me; your answer seems to be kind of contradictory: "Regardless of the fact that it is audio, it's still stored in a digital format and can be verified as 100% of the original."
But I guess what you're saying is a bad CD-R or a bad CD-R drive WILL affect the sound of your music. Well, that stinks. Kind of distroys the point of digital audio, huh? I guess I'll have to go spend some more money. Thank you for enlightening me :-)
Mar 10, 2003 08:29 pm 'Can be verified' basically means you can 'check' to see if it's a bad burn or not.
If it's verified at 100%, meaning exactly the same as the data you intended to write, then there will be absolutely no audio artifacts on a player that supports the media you use.
W.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 10, 2003 09:10 pm About burning speed, My Que USB 2.0 burner willnot burn any slower then 4X, and it will make a coaster 1 out of 5 or 6 CDs. I am trying to find a program that will overide this and allow 1X but as of yet, have not found one.
Mar 10, 2003 09:14 pm Oh, Okay. Thanks. Does Nero let you do a comparison like that?
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 10, 2003 10:48 pm Waldo,
What exactly happens when you burn from a CDR file format? I have noted that I do much better to rip to wav and then burn. Is there a resampling action going on?
Mar 10, 2003 10:53 pm Noize2U, try using better software. Since it is an external burner on USB, you are far more likely to have more errors than one connected to your internal bus.
Porpoise, the one I use does, yep.
Walt, not sure what you mean by CDR format, there is no standard (RFC) format by that name.
As far as ripping to WAV, I assume you mean sampling from a CD, or MP3, and converting to WAV format. As long as your 'ripping' and 'conversion' software is up to par, then you'll get better results that way (less chance of errors). Most ripping software only samples parts of the actual audio data to speed things up. Check into CDEX (CD Exact), which will verify the data on the fly and report any read errors. Takes longer, but worth it if you want to preserve the quality.
W.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 10, 2003 11:04 pm Thanks Waldo! It is coming clearer now. Sorry about the CDR reference. I guess I forgot what the suffix is on a file burnt to a cd for playback on a player. I just always wondered about that. I noticed that the files where small and I thought maybe they where reference files. I never understood the format used for a cd playable on a cd player. Wav I can understand.
Mar 10, 2003 11:28 pm CDA is what you are thinking of then 'Compact Disk Audio'.
They are, in essense, just an ISO9660 reference (pointer) to the data.
W.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 11, 2003 04:55 pm Waldo, the sad part is I am using Easy CD creator with the latest updates. I have used about 6 differant programs to try and get it to burn at 1X, but none will allow anyuthing lower then 4X. Truth is I have had the best luck burning straight out of PowerDesk or Win Media Player, I dont think Ive had one coaster come out of those programs. But, the drawback is, no RedBook burning out of those.
Mar 11, 2003 05:26 pm What about RedBook Standard CDs? Can they be burned on a standard CDR drive using the right software? Will CD Architect do that? I would like to duplicate me own CDs in short runs, but I want them to be playable in all players.
Mar 11, 2003 05:34 pm Ya, CD Arch will comply to redbook standards, as do most modern burning apps that I am aware of.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 11, 2003 09:09 pm I hate to say it, but I think Im gonna go with Waldos advice and go with Nero. I use the lite app of it that came with my Que burner, and like it. but it does not have all the bells and whistles. EZ Cd creator has been good to me for years, but I gotta try to get the coaster facter down.
Peace
Mar 11, 2003 10:14 pm EZ CD was good when Adaptec owned it. Once Roxio got their hands on it, well, let's just say it's gone down hill.
The full version of nero has way more features and configurability than that little cheasy app. does ;)
RedBook simply refers to the audio format (bit rate, etc., highest quality available in CD format), I don't know of any Audio CD burning software that doesn't burn audio to RedBook standards.
W.
Mar 11, 2003 10:20 pm Perhaps I'm just too ignorant to word my question right! It wouldn't be thee first time. So, maybe it's not Redbook Standard that I need, but basically what I want to do is be able to burn CDs that end up NOT being CDRs. Do I need a full scale duplicator in order to burn regular CDs? When I say "regular," I mean them same as a store bought CD.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 11, 2003 11:08 pm I should let Waldo answer this one, but there is one way to see if my understanding is correct and that is to test it by stating it. My understanding is that any CD burner (physical unit in a pc or otherwise) will burn a blank CD with equal quality of a store purchased CD. Red book is a data formating standard for imprinting music to the Physical disk. "Red book standard" is a function of the burning software. I have heard tale that some software capable of burning music CD's is not Red Book standard, but I tend to trust Waldo who stated that to his knowledge all burning software does utilize Red Book Standard.
Mar 12, 2003 11:37 am BlueNinja- 'Not being a CDr' or 'normal store bought CDs' would mean not using chemical substrates. The term you would be looking for is 'replication' or 'die-cutting'. The machinery to do this will cost you several million dollars (Laser aluminum cutter, injection molding, etc.)
The difference is that they actually 'cut' a chunk of aluminum (holes for 1's, none for 0's) using a high quality laser, then they injection mold the plastic around the aluminum. Before this they create a 'glass master', similar process.
The result is of course the highest compatibility with CD players, and Zero degredation over time, unlike with CDr's (explained above, possible compatibility issues) which can also degrade over time.
Best is to get someone who already has the replication system to do it for you, rather than invest the millions needed! You'll have to run off minimum prints due to the injection molding systems limitations, usually around 500, but the end result is worth it. Get in touch if you want me to get some done for you, I've got discounts with a local company.
Walt- There is a physcial difference between a CDr and a regular CD, check above!
But yes, there is software capable of burning non-redbook CDs (as well as redbook), such as hybrids, mixed mode, and CDextra. It's all in the setup and configuration.
Redbook, again, is a format in which the data is on the CD.
W.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 12, 2003 01:15 pm Always wondered about that. The industry really smoozes over that physical difference. The reasons are obvious. Very good to know. Thanks O-Waldo-of-Oz!
Mar 12, 2003 02:01 pm That clears it up for me. Thanks Waldo, you are always a wealth of knowledge!
Mar 15, 2003 06:56 pm Hey Waldo, I just went out and bought a copy of Nero 5. I was wondering how I can configure the software to do a verification after I burn a CD to make sure the data is the same. I couldn't find anything about that in manual or help files. Also, what are indexes used for and should I use them instead of splitting up a full track? I tried using an index marker on my first burn with the software but it didn't seem to do its job when I put it in a CD player. Is this a "problem" with my burner? Thanks.
Mar 15, 2003 07:49 pm When the burn window is open, at the bottom (on mine) is a little check box 'verify after burn'.
Indexes are non-standard, and not supported by all CD players.
Quote:
should I use them instead of splitting up a full track? Not sure why you (or anybody) would want to split up a track. What are you getting at?
W.
Mar 15, 2003 09:44 pm Thanks for getting back to me. What version of Nero are you using? I'm using the latest full version (5.5). I don't remember seeing a verify after burn box, but I'll check again.
When I said "split up a full track" I meant split up a full wave file. Sorry about that. For example, say I recorded a live performance and I wanted to separate the performance into different tracks without silence between them.
Mar 15, 2003 09:52 pm Split them into seperate wav files with a wav editor (I think you can use the internal nero one and use 'split' rather than index). If you need 'no gaps' or space between the tracks, change that option on each track as you add them to nero (I believe you can right click on the tracks, and change the silence value, which usually defaults to 2 seconds).
The version I use is 5.5.78, I don't think it's the latest, but it's close.
W.
DanMember
Since: Nov 21, 2002
Mar 15, 2003 11:04 pm Hey, I know that its obvious that CD-R burning hasn't been around long enough to tell, but how long would it take for the chemicals in CD-R's to decompose? Just wondering if perhaps there is a way of telling, or maybe will just have to wait for it to happen.
Mar 15, 2003 11:39 pm Variable, depending on conditions of course, however, good grade media should last 70-100 years. Low grade media can be as little as 1 year before degredation occurs.
W.
Mar 16, 2003 04:20 pm Hmmm... I don't see any verify checkbox. Can you tell me exactly where it is on yours? I just bought the program yesterday and it says it's the latest version (5.5). The website says the same thing. What am I missing?
Mar 16, 2003 04:38 pm Right at the bottom of the burn window, when you are burning a CD. Next time I do a burn, I'll get a screen shot for you.
PS, your version should be 5.5.??
Do the 'help->about' to find out exactly what revision it is.
W.
Mar 16, 2003 04:53 pm Hey dB, I need an image attachment function! lol
W.
Mar 16, 2003 05:51 pm ya, I'll get right on that ;-)
Mar 16, 2003 08:00 pm Waldo, you can send it to me by e-mail attachment if you want: [email protected]
Thanks
Mar 16, 2003 08:15 pm Okay, I checked and found out that I have version 5.5.9.13
Mar 16, 2003 08:25 pm Okay, I sent you the screen shot. I don't know if they removed the feature in that revision, but it would be stupid if they did!
W.
Mar 16, 2003 09:20 pm Well, I got the picture. Thanks man. I tried burning another CD, but there was no verify checkbox by the "Shut down computer after burn" box. I'm getting really annoyed with this... There's no reason for them to take out such a great feature! Maybe they just figure that their burns are always perfect... Well, thanks anyway, Waldo. I'll have to ask Ahead software about it.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 16, 2003 10:21 pm Hey muffins, I just installed the new version today, I even looked in the preferances and did not see this option. I am wondering why they would take it out, pretty lame to take out a verification if you ask me.
Mar 17, 2003 12:23 am i'm running 5.5.8.0 and i don't seem to have that button either. there is text in the help file on it. maybe this will help:
nero help file:
The 'verify' feature is currently only available for ISO9660 compilations and only, if the Nero driver is installed in the system. This driver is installed automatically during the Nero installation.
Mar 17, 2003 03:18 pm What is a "ISO9660 compilation?"
Maybe you can download an earlier 5.5 version update on the Nero site to get the feature...
Mar 17, 2003 03:30 pm Oh wait--- I guess you can't. Oh well. Can somebody try to contact them about this issue? I can't get the help service to work for me...
Mar 17, 2003 03:33 pm why don't you.
Mar 17, 2003 03:35 pm "I can't get the help service to work for me"
No... You do it FOR me!!!! :-) j/k
Mar 17, 2003 05:09 pm ISO = International Standards Organization
9660 is the standard format for data on CDs. Since I usually burn from ISO images, the feature is available to me. However, it appears that doing a raw audio compilation from scratch in Nero, and having Nero do the verification isn't possible.
W.
Mar 17, 2003 06:40 pm Ahhh... I see. Thanks Waldo. Well, I guess my $75 wasn't really all that worth it. Oh well, it is a very nice program anyways.
Mar 17, 2003 06:58 pm You can still make a master, and then create an ISO image from that master, then verify each copy you make from that master.
W.
