Jun 12, 2007 04:57 am i say, when tracking, turn it up all the way on the keyboard...maybe back off a hair to avoid clipping
Output Gain Volume
Posted on Jun 12, 2007 01:00 am
peterparker
The Beat Keeper
Member Since: Dec 16, 2004
I was informed when recording tracks I should get them to 6db, which has been working fine for me.
Last night I was tracking out one of my beats (from my keyboard) and one track was played soft and maybe came up to about 8db (and that was with the volume of the patch turned all the way up. In order to get it up to 6db, I had to turn up the output gain on the keyboard and turn down the patches volume and got the 6db I was trying for.
When I turned up the output gain on the keyboard for that one sound it came out more beefier sounding, compared to the other tracks that I had just recorded from the same keyboard earlier.
The question I have is should I leave the output gain up for all the tracks or not turn the output gain up at all just leave it at 0? Also if I'm using another piece of equipment on the same beat should I turn its output gain up as well?
I dont have anything running into a preamp. My keyboard is using a S/PDIF connection directly to pro-tools.
Thank you
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Jun 12, 2007 04:57 am i say, when tracking, turn it up all the way on the keyboard...maybe back off a hair to avoid clipping
Jun 12, 2007 04:11 pm So youre saying to turn the output gain up I take it?
Jun 12, 2007 04:47 pm if you're talkin' about the keyboards master volume knob, then i say yes.
Jun 12, 2007 08:29 pm cool. Thanks for the info WYD. Much appreciated.
Jun 12, 2007 09:46 pm Its called gain staging. The first device in the chain should be as high as it can without distortion. Then each device which is capable of adding gain will be slightly lower as the chain moves on.
If the device has no output gain and only something called channel volume it is the same principle for that as well.
Jun 12, 2007 10:13 pm Appreciate that extra info Noize learn something new everyday. Beings that I have the Fantom plugged diretly to my PT I wouldnt have to worry about anything else correct?
Jun 12, 2007 10:18 pm Nope, just you input level on your audio interfaces digital input and the channel level in the DAW.
Jun 12, 2007 10:46 pm Damn I cant believe im just learning this. Where in the hell have I been. Thanks again Noize.
Jun 13, 2007 08:41 pm I got spanked very early on in my studio life for not using proper gain staging. The guy let me twiddle for about an hour and a half before he finally walked me through my signal chain and made me take note of were each new bit of gain was being added. He never once directed me, simply asked me what I thought was happening at each stage in the signal chain. Kept it up until I finally got the idea he was trying to convey. Then once all was good and I was getting the hottest signal with no distortion he made me take note of were everything was. Then calmly stated that I had just had my first lesson in Gain staging and pointed his finger and stated that I should never forget it, no matter were recording went from there. That was 1972, I was 14 years old. And indeed, I have never forgotten it since.
Jun 14, 2007 08:36 pm Yes he was. Probably the best I ever worked with, pity is I did not fully appreciate him until he was gone.
Jun 14, 2007 08:43 pm ^Thats the way it normally works.
So let me see if I have this correct....
On my piece of equipment I would turn its output gain all the way up, turn up the machines volume all the way up, then adjust the patch or sample (depending on the machine)all the while avoiding distorion correct?
Jun 14, 2007 08:46 pm ok hold on....be more specific please...
what is your "piece of equipment"? that has the output gain knob? and what's the "machine" you're talkin' about? are these not the same thing? or are you running a piece of equipment into a machine then into the computer? ...as for patch, it depends.
Jun 14, 2007 08:54 pm One piece is my MPC 2000, it has the output gain, then the master volume knob then the indvidual levels for for each sample loaded in there.
The other piece is my Fantom keyboard which is hooked up via S/PDIF, it too has the output gain option, as well as the level for the patch.
Both are plugged directly to pro-tools, although there maybe times in the future I have em plugged through a comp or something. But right now theyre plugged directly to my pro-tools rig.
Jun 14, 2007 08:58 pm ok i see...
on the mpc, does the "output gain" have a knob aswell as the "master volume"?
if you're hookin' gear up digitally then i'd keep the gain at 0db...don't cut it (unless it's clipping your interface) or boost it.
as for patch levels....only use them if you're gooin' from one patch to another and there's a serious level change.
Jun 14, 2007 09:04 pm Nah the output gain is under an options menu in the MPC.
As for the patch levels in the Fantom, im under the Multitimbral screen but have to record one at a time.
I was trying to get all the tracks to peak at around -6, -7dbfs, as ive heard that was a decent level to track at.
Jun 14, 2007 09:06 pm ok keep that at unity then....
the fantom should have some kind of 'mixer' screne in it where you can set the levels of all the patches.
and yes -6dbfs is perfect when tracking.
Jun 14, 2007 09:15 pm Unity would be 0 correct?
Yeah I was setting the volumes with the patches.
This is where I ran into the problem though. On the Fantom I had one part that I played soft, with the patches level all the way up on the Fantom I was maybe hitting -8, -9dbfs (possibly lower) in pro-tools. In order to get it up to the -6dbfs, I turned up the output gain on the Fantom to +12db and then turned the volume of the patch down, which worked fine.
Jun 14, 2007 09:16 pm The problem that I came across in doing that is when playing the first track that didnt need the output gain boosted to make it to the -6dbfs to the 2nd trakc which I did turn up, the 2nd track sounded more beefier. No distortion either.
Hopefully that made sense
Jun 14, 2007 09:23 pm ok, lemme get this strait...
you're sequencing mutiple tracks in the fantom, then playin' it back and recording into PT?
Jun 14, 2007 09:27 pm Acutally im sequencing everything to my MPC. I then have my pro-tools and MPC connected via MTC and tracking everything into pro-tools.
(thanks for hangin with me by the way)
Jun 14, 2007 09:37 pm it's all good....
ok, are you keeping all tracks isolated in PT?
if not, i'd suggest tryin' to do that...you may have to re-route your midi cables to make PT your master clock so everything will stay in time.
so you're using the MPC to trigger sounds from the fantom?
Jun 14, 2007 09:42 pm Yeah all the tracks are isolated, I do one at a time in. Yeah I guess you could say im using it to trigger the sounds on the fantom, Ive got all the midi routed into it and all my gear is synchd via the Midi Clock, when I go to dump everything in pro-tools I sync the MPC and pro-tools via MTC, with about 5-10 seconds for everything to synch up.
Jun 14, 2007 09:50 pm ok well, then i'd say quit worryin' about the levels!!! you can turn the loud tracks down or the quiet tracks up in PT....tracking at -10 isn't gonna kill your sound when compared to tracking at -6...it could be that some of the individual patches on your fantom sound "beefier" than others. use a plugin' or two to get the sound you're after.
Jun 14, 2007 09:53 pm alright thanks man. appreciate it.
Jun 14, 2007 10:02 pm the trick is to step back and objectively look at the situation, and what your options are to achieving your goals.....i'm guessing the whole point of this thread was so you could get the most 'beef' out of each patch....which is a good goal.
your options are (i'm talkin' about only levels here) your master volume, your output gain, your patch volume (or is that output gain) and simply adjusting the gain in PT, either with the channel strip or by off-line processing.
ya just gotta think real hard and slow about what's gooin' on inside of the digital domain....which gain stage comes first? the output gain, or the master volume? things like that....follow the path, bust out the manual if you have to. understanding your keyboards gain stages will definitely help you get better sounds out of it.
Jun 14, 2007 10:18 pm Appreciate it WYD. Do you have any links to things on gain staging?
Jun 14, 2007 10:25 pm www.digido.com/bob-katz/l...ces-part-1.html
www.digido.com/bob-katz/l...e-k-system.html
those arn't all that 'on the point'...
there's not really "do this, don't do that" kind of rules...you just need to know what you're dooing and how/when it's affecting your signal.
simple stuff like recording things quiet then turning it way up will make for a 'noisy' sound.
that bruce miller class on my other thread is gettin' ready to cover gain staging real soon.
and remember, louder isn't always better....allowing yourself some headroom can lead to cleaner, punchier recordings.
Jun 14, 2007 10:37 pm COOOOOOOOL thank you very much sir. -6dbfs should leave fairly enough room though, or does that depend on the instrument?
Jun 14, 2007 10:47 pm when tracking...i try to keep everything in that area....when dooin' final mixdown, i mix to -6 or -4...then when masterin' i bring it up to -.5 then normalize to 0. but i'm no expert on the subject, it's just what i do.
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