Atari?

Posted on

PC Warrior
Member Since: Dec 28, 2005

Just curious, anybody here still use an Atari for their midi stuff. I've kept mine and over the years although it's grown quite obsolete from a theorhetical perspective, I find that the sequencers and other midi software I have for it (Dr T's KCS Omega for starters and some algorhythmic midi software) are still advanced WAAAAAAAAY beyond what I see available for the PC even today. Blows away the one in Cakewalk, and the Pro Tools one is barely a sequencer at all in my view. More like a midi tracking device than a true sequencer.

[ Back to Top ]


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Feb 02, 2006 10:45 am

I still have my old Atari 64XL with a whopping 64k of RAM AND a 5 1/4" floppy drive and a cassette drive...not really a sequencing computer, IF it boots up anymore it's in DOS 2 or 3 or something...but it's Atari so I figured I'd toss it out there for trivial interest reasons...

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Feb 02, 2006 11:56 am

A buddy of mine in England still uses his Atari 1040SE (is that the one?), with Steinberg software. I believe this was the first computer to have MIDI in/out directly attached. He runs up to 48 tracks (all midi) through it. Amazing when you consider the age of the technology.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 03, 2006 07:27 pm

Phil, although I did start and use a 1040ST for years, and ran several differant sequancers, Cakewalks being about the most advanced I ever found. But I dont miss having everything synced with lost of extra hardware to the analog tape machines. I miss the simplicity of those old seqauncers though for sure.

I beg to differ with you on the sequancers of today being far behind. You obviously havent seen or used the sequancer part of Sonar or Cakewalk for a long time if you have that opinion. Cakewalk has won numerous awards over the last several years for staying true to their midi roots and advancing far beyound others with their sequancer section of their applications. While others have dropped and thinned down their midi implementation in favour of loop based stuff. Cakewalk has advanced it, added to it. Midi FX were first implemented by non other then Cakewalk. I know this as I have used many other app through all these years, but have always kept Cakewalk/Sonar as my main DAW of choice. I have every release they have ever done, and midi has always played a huge roll in their software.

Sorry for the rant.

Nozie

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Feb 06, 2006 01:25 pm

Noize,

Well actually, I use Cakewalk too and have for several years. It has been my main PC based sequencer for at least five years now. It's definitely better than most I've seen for the PC platform or even the MAC. I'd also agree that their Midi FX are a wonderful addition.

I'll also agree that Cakewalk has contiued to progress in Midi functionality while most others have scaled back. But, what I really miss is performance and composition programs like KCS and the algorhythmic programs of the time.

Some of the older sequencers, particularly KCS, had highly evolved tools like the PVG (Programmable Variation Generator). And there were many other other alorhythmic compositional tools that are still not even approached by Cakewalk or anything else commonly available today. Programs such as "M", Music Mouse, Midi-Draw, AMI (Algorhythmic Musical Interface), Midi-AX, as well as Fractal Music generators and many many others. Cakewalk is fine for the mundane track based sequencing that is most common today, but as an experimental tool it's still very simplistic. The closest it comes is groove quantizing, which could easily be done with the PVG. A useful feature, but not very advanced. And of course, let's not forget open mode, which enabled KCS to be used as an interactive performance device. You could assign up to 128 different sequences to different keys on a computer keyboard. This allowed for amazing compositional capabilities (you could record the entire performace as you played it), and could have these sequences layer over each other as well. This is something you still can't do with Cakewalk or anything else commonly available today. In fact, even on the Atari's and Macs of the day, there was no other sequencer like it. This was a real testament to the true genius of Emile Tobenfeld. KCS was complex and difficult to use, but it had capabilities like no other before, current, nor since.

Additionally, I find Cakewalk lacking even in some mundane features that I used to take for granted. For example KCS had a "split" feature which would would split each voice of a chord out into it's own track which could then be assigned to distinct midi channels. This kind of thing can be done in Cakewalk, but only if you write a cal script for it. I find that even the arranging capabilities of Cakewalk seem to be deficient when compared to KCS song mode for example.

I'm sorry, but modern sequencers, even the venerable Cakewalk which I admit is hands down the best commonly available today, are all still based on basic mundane linear and track based sequencing. They cause you to think two dimensionally, whereas some of the old programs for the Atari had vastly more depth and capability. This allowed you to look at and conceive music from an entirely different perspective.

Now, I'll grant that much of this kind of functionality may only appeal to the propeller head set, but then again, I think that anything that allows you to branch into new and distinct musical directions is a good thing.



Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 06, 2006 11:01 pm

Phil, I see you are still on Pro Audio 9. Well I have good news for you. All the tools you described are there and more. When Sonar first came out they started including a lot of integrated stuff in the midi tools that I found amazing and hadnt seen since some of those specialized programs you mentioned. You can now paint your velocity or whatever you like. There are compositional tools as well that will do things just as you described above. There is so much more in Sonar now it is unbelievable. Especially in Sonar 5 PE. As well, if you really want to start experimenting way past what those old tools did, try Project 5 version 2.

I hate to sound rude about it, but honestly Pro Audio 9 is very outdated and you cant possibly judge what is in Sonar now by what is in PA 9.

I can honestly tell you this as I use it on a daily basis, there is way more in Sonar now then you described above. Honestly, if you think the features are mundane you have not seen the insides of Sonar. There is a whole new world waitng for you with an upgrade.

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Feb 07, 2006 10:28 am

Nah Bro, you don't sound rude at all. Actually I recently ordered Sonar 5, I'm just waiting for it to arrive. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Feb 07, 2006 11:53 am

Noise,

While I'm waiting for Sonar 5 to arrive, can you tell me if it's possible to input a few parameters and have it dynamically generate 4 part harmonies? This is one of my favorite algorithmic techniques and I've really been missing it. I'd also like to be able to import say a Julia or Mandelbrot set or even just an image file such as a bitmap or .gif and have it generate from that as well.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 07, 2006 06:53 pm

Phil, I will have to look at the midi implimentation again. I know there was a guy on the Beta team for Sonar and P5 who wrote a ton of really kool midi FX pluggins and I believe that was one he did. I will have to look and see if i can find the link and I'll post it up for you.

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Feb 15, 2006 10:35 am

Well, Sonar 5 Producer Edition finally arrived this week. I must say that the audio features are a significant, even dramatic improvement over PA9. The audio quality is better and the effects plugins are to die for. Really some of the best I've heard in my 30+ years as a musician.

You may even recall I was having a problem with my Aardvark Q10 on PA 9. It would not record at 24 bit depth, but it is now working in Sonar 5. That alone was worth the upgrade prices.

Also the workflow features are a significant improvement. More intuitive and easier to deal with. I was recording in seconds without even looking at the help files.

Regarding the midi implementation, so far I've not seen anything that I would call a significant improvement over PA9, and nothing even approaching some of the more esoteric featurs that could be found on the old Atari programs. But having said that, in fairness I should also say that I've not had time to get into that very deeply yet.

Still, were the enhancements in the midi implementation as dramatic as those in the audio and presentation aspects it seems to me that something would have caught my attention. If there is something specific I could look at, I'd appreciate being pointed in it's direction.

So far, I still say Atari is king in the midi implementation area. I'm not about to throw mine out.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 15, 2006 10:25 pm

Phil, when I get a little more time I will point some of the new stuff out. As well I will point you to a couple of websites that build midi pluggins specific to what we were used to in the Atari programs. They were actually designed around some of those older programs.

Some of the stuff is a little deeper in the application as well. I might also add that there are a couple that are set up to install seperately from the regular program install. I will again let you know what and where they are as well when I get a little time.

Related Forum Topics:

  • No related forum topics found...weird...


If you would like to participate in the forum discussions, feel free to register for your free membership.