Jun 21, 2004 08:51 am Nice. Glad to hear it, Walt. Sounds like a lot of experimentation that paid off!
Finally, drum seperation....what a battle!
Posted on Jun 21, 2004 08:10 am
Walt
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member Since: May 10, 2002
Just a little post; kinda a tricks and traps sort of thing; A way I found to seperate the voices on a kit when Grog is at the helm.
For each drum:
GRM Tools Band Pass Filter
VST Dynamics Gate tuned for center of Band Pass.
On some drums a little notch to get out the snare that permeates all.
Did the cymbals as one Stereo track using the same approach.
Finally got out all of the delay mud.
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Jun 21, 2004 08:51 am Nice. Glad to hear it, Walt. Sounds like a lot of experimentation that paid off!
Jun 21, 2004 10:18 am Edvo,
The band pass filter lets only a band of frequencies through, example: 225hz through 675Hz. In the case of the overhead mics you can tune the frequencies that pass through to only the range the cymbals use cutting out kick, toms, and most of the snare that are all picked up by the overheads. In the case of the kick drum there is probably 7 or 8 feet distance between the kick drum mic and the furthest overhead mic causing a 7 or 8 second delay between the two mics. This causes three problems. Each drum is reinforced many times making a good overall volume balance difficult to achieve, the delays between mics muddy the drum hits bluring them, and the phase difference between mics also adds to bluring or mud.
Hope that explanation helps?
Mr. Muffins,
Ya-betca-ya! Gating alone was impossible as the volume levels where not far enough appart to effectively gate. Band pass alone left some bleed although greatly subdued in volume. And the blessed snare (which he pounds) covers a huge frequency range. Oh ya, also forgot, because I miced only the head oppisite the malot on the kick I also had to reverse phase on the kick. It and the the toms where phase fighting.
Jun 21, 2004 01:53 pm Walt, if you have some major phasing problems with the overheads then you might want to look at how you are placing them. There's no way a kick can be delayed 7-8 seconds in the overheads... if this was the case nobody would use this technique. milliseconds of delay, yes, but not seconds. Sound travels at 1130 feet per second (at 68 degrees F and +1.1 ft for every degree above and -1.1ft for every degree below).
To avoid major phasing problems try using the 3-to-1 rule for using more than one mic: Your second mic should be At Least 3 times the distance of the first mic to the sound source.
Jun 21, 2004 03:42 pm Walt
I thought, you use filter in some specific way. I use high pass filter on cymbals. But I am afraid, too much of filtering impoverishes sounds.
Jun 22, 2004 08:16 am Ya Edvo, It is just a task of patient fine tuning. I did the filtering "off line" for each track. It's a process of getting all of the pieces in place and then working them with each other until it's tuned in.
El Musico,
OOOOps! Sorry. I re-read my post. Forgot to put in the milli prior to the second. I was posting here at work and had a few interuptions. That must have been one of them!
Jun 22, 2004 09:17 am this is what you need if you want to drop some cash. i want 2 or 3 of these badly for awesome guitar/bass tone:
www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html
they have a "junior" model as well.
do they make a plugin that functions like this box does? i checked and found the PHA-979 by Voxengo, but that is for program material, not for individual microphone/direct signals.
Jun 23, 2004 07:30 am Minkus,
Very cool! And not that I know of in a plug. Mostly only delay which can help. In fact most plugs introduce some phase or time shift. Try putting two copies of the same track in a multitrack prog and phase reverse one of the tracks. The result of the mix obviously will be no sound at all per cancelation. Put different plugs on one of the tracks and see how many of them will defeat the cancelation. It is interesting.
Jun 23, 2004 10:39 am i was aware that EQ could shift the phase of a signal, but i wasn't aware that plugins in general do that, so thanks for that. does outboard gear do the same thing?
the manual for that IBP has an excellent article on phase in it. now it's got me thinking all crazy...i want to build all sorts of stuff that lets you mess with the phase with more accuracy than the polarity reversal switch. imagine throwing one or two inside of a guitar...tweak heaven!
Jun 24, 2004 04:40 pm Ya MinkusMaz,
Most all outboard gear alters the phase relationships of the signal. Some super high end amps like top of the line Crown will re-allign the signal as part of their process. And you are correct with your assesement of "tweek heaven" although phase is a funny animal. A good part of sound synthysis is based on phase relationships. Mixing frequencies from different beat frequency oscilators e.g. LFO HFO. There is intensity of the signals, frequency of the signals, and phase of the signals that all contribute to the ultimate sound produced. Obviously the same is true of the mixing process as you are blending multiple frequencies into an output signal.
Another way to play with phase adjustement is to use very small values in delay generators. A full cycle of 100hz is 10 miliseconds long. By creating a 1 milisecond delay you can alter the phase of a 100hz waveform by 36 degrees. Obviously adjustements of this nature can make a precievable difference in bass or kick signals. When you get into higher frequencies, adjustements would have to be in micro or nano seconds. That is obviously getting into super fine adjustment ranges. Problem with most instruments e.g. a snare drum is that they cover such a wide frequency spectrum to develope their tone that adjusting phase does more in terms of changing the sound of the instrument than to make it play well with others in most cases.
Eeee-gad. What a bunch of babble! I worry about me sometimes.
Jun 25, 2004 02:14 am i have been playing with a simple delay plugin for doing phase stuff for a while now, but i gave up because the difference between each millisecond was too much...you would hear an EEEE then an AAAHHHH afterwards, no in-betweens. i couldn't find a delay plugin to do it finer than that while being free, so i retreated into dreamland...one day!
thanks again walt
Jun 25, 2004 08:26 am My pleasure! I seem to love to babble.
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