On songwriting in general...

Posted on

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member Since: Aug 05, 2003

What is your method/technique/gimmick for writing songs?
How did you learn to write music?
Do your finished products sound like your original ideas?

I just thought I'd toss a few questions out to stir up some conversation... :)

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Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Aug 27, 2003 01:11 pm

1- No real gimick, I just sit with my guitar or bass and beat around. I never (or rarely) sit down and actually try to write a song, usually I am just playing scales or messing around and suddenly go "hey, that sounded cool...what was it again?" and try to find it again and build on it.

2- By finding those riffs and building on them...though I still don't consider myself much os a songwriter, I am getting better.

3- No, cuz I rarely have the original idea to begin with, I just run with the riff I have so I have very little pre-conception of what it will sound like.

It has been my experience that a songwriter is not the person that comes up with the one good hook, or the signature riff, the songwriter is the guy or gal that can take that one hook and make it into a whole song...

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003


Aug 27, 2003 01:59 pm

Actually my methods have changed a lot with me over the 15 years I've been writing/playing. When I first started playing, my writing was greatly limited by what little music-related noise I could actually play. I'd take a simple lick, put it with another simple lick, and call it a "song-that-I'm-working-on" to make myself feel like I wasn't such a newbie. hahaha Later, I began to piece together simple songs, starting with a riff I liked, playing every imaginable permutation of that riff until I found something complementary, and would do that until I had a song of about 3-4 different changes. I might then try to write lyrics.
Later - high school band days - I would write all my songs first as lyrics on paper, and try to keep the various snippets of accompanying music in my head all day so I could run home after school and try to noodle them out on my gtr. More often than not, I'd be unable to play what I heard in my head, so I'd play something similar-but-simplified, and put the lyrics to it. That was when I really started coming up with songs that one could actually listen to without their ears bleeding.
I went through a phase in college where I'd sit down with a gtr and just purposely force myself to write a song. I still do that from time to time - can't kick the habit I suppose. It's pretty hit-or-miss though... usually I end up with something that is technically difficult and mostly cacophonous.
My songwriting and playing is finally starting to mature to the point where I can actually play what I REALLY hear in my head, instead of a simplified, filtered version of it. That means I'm coming up with ideas in unfamiliar keys, which makes it a challenge for me performance-wise. I took a tip I saw in a songwriting e-zine and bought a tape recorder. Man, that was the best musical buy I ever made - all of my recent songs started out driving to or from work (a one hour drive) humming, mumbling, singing, tapping into a tape recorder. The only problem with it is the linear aspect - you have to write from start to finish, for the most part. In addition to that, I occasionally I get ideas from jamming with friends, or random input from who-knows-where.
I taught myself how to write music by studying (by repeated listening) the music that I liked, learning how it was put together, sketching out the song format, paying attention to how they wrote the lyrics, how the instruments were used together. I did take formalized music classes later in life (college) but still, they didn't teach me about writing. The best way to learn that is just to study the music you drives you, figure out what you like about it, and by trial and error, figure how to express yourself in a way that you can stand to listen to later... :) I still have problems with that sometimes...

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Aug 27, 2003 02:04 pm

argh, writting music to go with lyrics is a pain. I dunno about you guys, but I know some people that write that way, and I can often pick out a song that had it's lyrics (or even melody line) in place first, cuz often the music sounds "forced" into place...I dunno how else to describe it, but it is often very obvious when music is put to lyrics rather than the other way around. Which explain my lack of interest in pre-existing lyrics that someone wants made into a song, it's just not natural that way. I would rather have some kickin music that someone says "let's write some lyrics to this, cuz the lyrics don't have to say anything or make sense, they just have to fit, and it's easier to put words to music and music to words.

In my opinion.

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003


Aug 27, 2003 02:15 pm

I know what you mean, when I write with the tape recorder, I usually come up with the song idea first, then make up lyrics, then sing the lyrics into the recorder, with me humming the riffs in between the lyrical lines. The first thing I did when I got that recorder was to come up with lyrics with no accompanying song idea. They were some of the WORST lyrics I've ever written, including high school. hahahaha It is (IMHO) almost always best to come up with a song idea, then put lyrics to it. But I don't think that that song idea needs to be complete at all - just have some idea of what you want the music to be like and how it should sound. Often I come up with the basic concept of what I want the song to be about (like the one I wrote for my wife), then hum out the gtr parts, then tap out a rhythym, then come up with lyric ideas. It works best for me in that order. But, you know, there's no hard and fast rule, so if I come up with stuff in the wrong order every once in a while, I get it on tape and stash it away, hoping to be able to use some time.

lost at sea...
Member
Since: Jun 18, 2003


Aug 27, 2003 02:52 pm

I can't play guitar or keyboard but i have both, most of my songs start by me messing about on either instrument, i have no real theory i just use trusty trial and error, if i like what i'm playing then i'll pencil the notes into Reason or whatever software program i'm using and then a song is born! Hopefully in the near future i'll have the necessary equipment to actually record the guitar instead of relying on computer software for all my sounds

Member
Since: Jun 28, 2002


Aug 27, 2003 04:25 pm

i ether write the song and then once recorded make up the lyrics and record them. what i usually do now thou is when i get a really good vocal part in my head i sing it and record it then go back and play the guitar till it mattches what i played in my head. this way the music is more centerd around the vocals.

Freeleance Producer/Engineer/Gtr
Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002


Aug 27, 2003 05:28 pm

i write, record, rewrite, record, produce/rewrite/beak it down and build it back up with necessary stuff from over production, record, cry, rewrite, record again...

Member
Since: Jun 28, 2002


Aug 27, 2003 05:32 pm

"No real gimick, I just sit with my guitar or bass and beat around" - are you looking at porn or sheet music? :)

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Aug 27, 2003 05:47 pm

somehow, i've developed the ability to learn chord progressions that i hear, whether in my head or on a CD, in just a moment or two. recently i've been thinking i've somehow evolved a sometimes-functional perfect pitch. i can be at a party and hear a song and go to the piano and hit 'E' and just start playing a riff i've never heard before in the right key. it's weird because i don't think about it. my hand goes to the right note based on some kind of quick spatial evaluation of the keyboard. i feel a physical pull towards the right note, as if throwing a ball through a hole in a target. then, after i hit that note, that same process continues interval by interval. it works for chords, too. this SHOULD mean that i could transcribe whatever i hear in my head, whenever i hear it. the problem is, i almost never hear 'original' music in my head, so there's nothing to transcribe. instead i have to sit down with a guitar or a keyboard and start messing around.

i put on a drum loop sometimes and write a riff to it. i'll have cubase opened with a single track devoted to storing all the riffs i come up with in that session, from left to right. below that track i'll put down a verse riff and try to layer other things with it using different tracks. then i'll go up to my source track and see if i can use any ideas there for the next section of the song, or else i'll mess around some more, storing what i come up with in track 1.

once i have a riff i like and the song needs to go somewhere else, i will then figure out what key the riff appears to be in. if the riff is centered around what feels like a I chord in the key of C, i'll start thinking about whether i should go to any of the other handful of chords in that key or if i should go to a new key, or if maybe i can force a reharmonization of that I chord and surprise the listener by suddenly changing what first felt like a I chord into a V chord or something--by introducing a new I chord and thus automatically reframing the original riff in a new context. anyway, once i figure out what chord shift conveys the coolest or most appropriate mood, i will write a new riff with the new chord as the tonal center. hopefully the theory behind the harmonic changes is not so obvious. these are mostly riffs, not chord progressions, so what i go for is a feeling of harmonic movement beneath the surface of the riffs. just a forcing of the tonality, if that makes sense. you can use the major key harmonization for this, or any of the seven modes and the minor scales. thats 11 chord sets to play around with. and when i get bored of this, which sometimes happens after a few moments, then i'll start altering those chords in the 'wrong' way. or just forget theory and start reaching around.

i'm just learning how to do this stuff and i've never posted anything to HRC that uses this style, but so far it's working well. it's a split between using the same old 'by-ear' mood-baswed writing i've always done, and using theory to structure the changes. i have determined that whether they know it or not, most of my favorite artists lean upon the more common changes to give thier songs power. the rest is imagination and experimentation.

Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003


Aug 28, 2003 02:01 am

1: 99.9% of my songs just start out as something I hit on while messing around. Might be a chord, riff, or whatever that I just start building on. The lyrics usually come from a phrase that I'm using while working on the melody of the song.

2: If by write you mean composing with music theory and putting it on paper I haven't learned how <G> Though I know enough music theory to eventually manage to put a melody on paper that I've created that would be about it. But in the broader sense of the term and the one your probably looking for, I learned to sing, and play an instrument (trombone), and some music theory in the church I went to when I was a kid, and later learned to play the guitar on my own, which gave me the tools to write songs, which I don't think is really learned as much as just something that we all have in us, it's just a matter of letting it out ;)

3: I think my finished songs sound pretty original, but I think that is better probably better judged by others.

Dan

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003


Aug 28, 2003 10:03 am

"If by write you mean composing with music theory and putting it on paper..."

Heck no! That's good for some folks. But us regular folks, who might wear tennis shoes or the occasional python boot, write by any means necessary. Writing means creating a song and never putting it on paper, means charting out a song by tablature or notation alone, means composing via software, means anything you want.

Member
Since: Dec 16, 2002


Aug 28, 2003 11:31 am

"What is your method/technique/gimmick for writing songs?"
I'll try anything. It's boring to stick to one method, so if someone says 'I do this...' then I'll try that method too. The best way is to wait for inspiration, some 'hook' comes into my head or some phrase and then take it form there. Sometimes though just messing around with the guitar can turn up an idea. I have also got hold of books of sheet music by other artists and had a look at the types of chords they've used and borrowed from that. I have no qualms about this method as my efforts always end up sounding nothing like the original!

How did you learn to write music?

I listend to Beatles & Lennon albums as a kid, over and over, absorbing the lyrics, the melodies the harmonies, the instrumentation. Then learned guitar and spent the rest of my life trying to produce something as great! That's about it.

Do your finished products sound like your original ideas?
Rarely. But that makes it even more fun!


Contributor
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Aug 28, 2003 04:29 pm

"Do your finished products sound like your original ideas?"

not exactly. but generally itll be fairly close. 10 minutes of listening to something i came up with and i can usually tell if ill be able to do anything with it.

"'No real gimick, I just sit with my guitar or bass and beat around' - are you looking at porn or sheet music? :)"

that just about killed me. beer coming out the nose is kinda uncomfortable and a horrible waste of beer.

i almost never sit down with the intention to write a track. ill be driving and listening to something else.. then ill start inserting my own lil ideas into other peoples work.. then i come home and try to reproduce my idea [without the other persons work] and build off that noise.
sometimes its a drum rhythym. other times itll be a lil melody line. sometimes a percussive noise of my car or other traffic meshing with the music.

once i get home.. i sit down with fruityloops and start sequencing and noodleing with my soft synths. sometimes strange things happen out of the blue. and then the rest follows and then lyrics come to you that feel like no other words would work in that track. [note: does anyone else ever feel that way?]

also: most of my lyrical topics and ideas come to me while driving. a lil piece here or there at a red light. or whatever. i write them down in my notebook immediately. and go home later to build on them [sometimes at work =P]

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003


Aug 28, 2003 05:41 pm

hey collapse - I have a one hour commute to work myself, and I tell ya, the best buy I ever made was a handheld tape recorder. You would be amazed at how many ideas *don't* slip away by the time you get home if you're putting them on tape! Lyrics, beats, melodies, whatever, hum it into the tape recorder and you'll thank yourself later.

Contributor
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Aug 28, 2003 06:20 pm

i very well might give that a try. hadnt really thought of it.. but it would keep a record of everything. interesting. thanks for the idea =)

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