That blasted Metronome! How do you guys record bands?

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Rockstar Vatican Assassin
Member Since: Mar 20, 2009

Curious as to how most of you record bands and have all of them keep the timing.

Here's my scenario. With my studio being only one room and having only 8 simultaneous mic inputs (all used up by my drums), there's no way for me to record drums WHILE having the guitar player play at the same time (DI).

So what I usually do is have them 'scratch track' as best they can to a metronome. This take A LOT of time, believe it or not, because they're used to playing along with the drums... and the lack of drums tends to throw them off more than you can imagine. Stupid death metal.. why's it gotta be so complicated?

Anyway.. back on point. Then, I record drums to the scratch track (with metronome as well) only to learn that we either forgot a part, or left a verse too short or whatever the case may be. So the scratch track process starts all over again.

Now... I could try to get around this nuance by playing drums (but not recording) whilst they record the scratch track, but my ability to keep with the metronome while trying to listen to the guitar player at the same time is even more impossible, especially when the songs change time/tempos.

So this leads to the question: What process do you guys use to record in perfect timing... especially if the metronome needs to be adjusted say from a 1/4 to a 3/4 during parts of the song? Are the bands you record just that well prepared or do you find yourself in similar scenarios?

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Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jan 16, 2013 01:47 pm

Sequence drums, let everyone do their thing (at least for the rhythm section) then you do your thing...that's one way.

Rockstar Vatican Assassin
Member
Since: Mar 20, 2009


Jan 16, 2013 02:07 pm

Right... but sequencing is no different than me just playing it; I'd still have know where the time changes are AND be able to draw that out in a program (vs just recording my live set with some simple patterns).

How do you sequence bands you haven't even heard before (i.e... not your own band)?

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003


Jan 16, 2013 03:35 pm

Id bet that others who work with bands regularly can give you better advice than me. But here is basically what I do as a "one man band" for my own songs. Basically I start with a skeleton click track with vocal cues as an audible outline for the song.

I would chart out the song - map out the time signature changes. Record the metronome in multiple takes, one for each time signature change, and chain them together to play as a single metronome scratch track. Record vocal cues on another track (hope you dont have a 4-track) such as "1 2 3 and play" "verse!" "Chorus!" at appropriate points to keep the players on track. Or speak some lyrics to keep the players on track later. Just add some audible clues to let them know where they are at within the song, while playing along with the click track. Pick the most solid player and have them lay down their track first, working to your scratch track only. Get the real drums done asap and if possible have them be first, then bring in the other instruments.

I hope this helps you with the band!

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Jan 16, 2013 06:02 pm

If they can't play to a click, I'd throw in a drum loop that they can record to, similar to what the drummer would play. Make sure its 100% quantized to grid, so they're not playing to any swing.

EDIT: TBH its a while since I've done that. I usually just skip to the next bit.

If the scratch track was still crappy I'd send them out for a smoke and edit the hell out of it, or comp multiple takes until I have something I'm happy with.

Then I'd record the drummer, and edit the hell out of him... Then the bass, and edit the hell out of him... Well, you get the point :0).

And every now and then you'll get a great band that kicks *** and groove as a unit. Those are the best days.

Member
Since: Jan 30, 2011


Jan 16, 2013 07:46 pm

I know what its like to try to record someone who NEEDS to be playing along to someone. Usually this is what I do/have seen done.

Have the guitarist and the drummer play at the same time. But only record the drummer. Just give the drummer a pair of headphones attatched to the guitarists amp. Then you have a drum track that's exactly right. Then you record the guitarists over that. Make sense?

Rockstar Vatican Assassin
Member
Since: Mar 20, 2009


Jan 17, 2013 07:54 am

@ Sanders.... that was a funny post! And you're right though. It ends up being that scenario in the end.

With my own band, its not really that much of an issue because I'm not paying myself. I mean, I know my own shortcomings so I like to have a scratch track first. That way, I can drum to it till my heart is content over the course of a week (punch in at every 'change' or 'screw-up). So in my case, the scratch has to be perfect and in time. If the guitar track sways a bit, then it f**ks me up when I'm trying to record on say, day 2 or day 3 because i'm hearing the song fresh again and don't remember where that sways occur.

But in the case of bands that want to record at my studio and I don't know **** about them.. and they're looking to get in/out, I'm looking for the most logical starting point to keep everyone on the same page. In most cases, having both the drummer and guitarist available at the same time is like pulling teeth. And when it comes to recording, the drummer can't play without the guitars and the guitarist can't keep track of where he/she is in the song without the drums. So its like.... s**t! Cause I don't have separate rooms to record them at the same time.

I guess that's the real meat of my question: What's better to have first.... a guitar track that's not perfect for the drummer to play to.... or a drum track that's not perfect for the guitarist to play to.. when recording a band you don't know anything about? Which direction would you go?

That brings me to quickkid's post.

@ Quickkid,
Me and my guitar player just discussed using that very same method yesterday. What we might try to pull off is running a visual metronome on my phone that he can 'watch' and tap his foot to whilst I wear headphones coming straight from his amp. I have an ART headphone splitter/amp as well, so both of us would be able to hear the guitar while playing. Like I said though... playing a song at our normal 'live' speed and trying to play it to a metronome gets very ugly... fast. Guess its worth a shot though. But then again, this still doesn't provide a recorded track for me to use throughout the week (if needed). *sigh* Eh, I'll figure something out!


edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Jan 17, 2013 12:16 pm

Quote:
I guess that's the real meat of my question: What's better to have first.... a guitar track that's not perfect for the drummer to play to.... or a drum track that's not perfect for the guitarist to play to.. when recording a band you don't know anything about? Which direction would you go?


Neither. Make the guitar track perfect! Then make the drum track perfect!

Perfect is exaggerating, but in time and grooving. If I'm tracking a band as separate musicians, the last recorded member has to be in the pocket before I move to the next musician. That means editing as soon as I've finished tracking one instrument (assuming they didn't get it quite right in the first place). Could just need a few snips here and there, could need every single beat/note shuffled.

Usually that means, scratch tracks - Edit (with vocals so the drummer knows where he is :0), Drums - Edit, Bass - Edit, GTR - Edit, Vocals - Edit, BV's - Edit, MIX.

Member
Since: Jan 30, 2011


Jan 17, 2013 08:09 pm

Isn't it aggrivating trying to record someone who cant keep time with a metronome?!!? I mean, that should really be one of the first things you work on when youre learning your instrument. But alas, theyre out there. Like people who cant tune their instruments...drives me crazy. But anyway, I didnt realize you only had one of the members at a time! Thats a pickle.

I agree with sanders, everything must be perfect! But if perfection isnt possible, I'd go with drums first. From my experience, if the drummer can't follow a metronome and lay down his track on his own, he cant play drums to a chuggy-out-of-time guitar track either. I'd have him play his part a couple times (really try him to use a metronome but if he cant, he cant). Then, if he misses a verse or plays a bridge too long or whatever, just comp in something else that fits. The goal would be to have a comprehensive drum track with all parts in place and with the best timing possible to record guitar to. Then if need be, go back and re-do the drums in one take to get them polished.

I donno man, you can only get your mix as good as the performance will allow. Just do your best. But I'd do drums first. Ya.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jan 18, 2013 05:48 am

we do ours with a click, the drummer does sections of the song and i paste it together if they require a diff click time. I just get him to play just past where we need to stop, so i can go back and paste it seamlessly. we have the click playing thru speakers not headphones. we use an electric kit so no mics to pick things up.

unfortunately as with anything ya gotta learn to use whatever methods you choose, it wont kinda happen overnight. Thats what ive found.

weve tried alot of ways, eg jam out with the drummer record the guitar track then record the drum track to that guitar track. Its way too hard to play some guitar parts to a metronome so we dont even try.
tried a click with headphones, becomes to hard to hear everything.

so we opted to do it the way i mentioned.

going with the notion that we're going to layer the drums anyway, i would never record drums again without using software. This not only gives ya an opp to layer more easily but you can fix things that are off a little.

IMO ya know we dont have recording contracts and we dont have the money or time to go over and over things till theyre right so im looking for the opp to fix things when i can (to a degree) No one pays for music anymore so im not worried about a little fix here and there treatment. Theyre lucky to be getting anything hahaha. You want it perfect well here it is.


http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jan 18, 2013 05:51 am

having said that having metronome in 16ths makes things a little easier too. If the drummer deviates (as they do) from the exact timing he can pick it up again strAight away or easier than 8ths.

I like the idea of the visual with no sound set at 16ths. I think thats where its at if ya can get the drummer to get it.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jan 18, 2013 10:34 am

We always record the same way....

Create click track using EZDrummer... this has the basic structure of the song and has fills etc so everyone knows where the changes are. I program the drums so that it has the kind of feel we are looking for.

Record bass

Record guitars

Record vox

Mix it all up and add keys/pads if necessary

Record live drums using the mix




Rockstar Vatican Assassin
Member
Since: Mar 20, 2009


Jan 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Quote:
Isn't it aggrivating trying to record someone who cant keep time with a metronome?!!?

Why you calling me out like that!!

I think you all make excellent suggestions; just need to find what works best. Regarding my own band (and as the drummer), probably just easier to create samples of the song live and loop as necessarry (just the basic beats) to create the flow, especially if in different times.

Here's a sample of one of our new tunes. As you can hear.... programming this would take me forever! Easier to just record the changes/different beats myself.




Member
Since: Jan 30, 2011


Jan 20, 2013 02:37 pm

Sorry dude, I take it back. I guess i must have read right over the part where YOURE the drummer :( I thought you were complaining about a band that you were recording. I don't wanna harsh the vibe on here. I donno what I was thinking throwing that in there.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jan 21, 2013 09:21 am

drumming sounds on to me there Hipp.

Our stuff can fluctuate a fair bit from time to time as far as tempo is concerned. It doesnt tend to bother me much as long as it gets recorded like we jam it. Obviously anything that sticks out too much we fix or if drummer boy has finished recording and its not too big a deal i'll just steal the same bit needed from another part of song.

fluctuations in tempo dont really cut thru once we have 4 tracks of guitars and a rippn bass, it gets smoothed out. im kinda reluctant to change it anyway if there's a tad in there. It sounds alot more el natural if she's a wild one in spots. if its not wrong or dont sound like poo i leave it. tempo flucs dont last long enough really for it to start affecting my guitar tracks much. Even so if i have ta i'll just learn where its a bit different and its not noticed.

Again on the midi thing, it just isnt an issue if something needs work and the session is finished, couple of slight drags here and there and things are good. To me moving a hit to make it a bit tighter is no different than re-recording it as far as a genuine take is concerned. Just gets done in a different way. Ya still dropping in and re doing it either way. Its when people start throwing in stuff they cant really do is a bit much.

your drums are bang on anyway mate so all good.

Rockstar Vatican Assassin
Member
Since: Mar 20, 2009


Jan 22, 2013 02:57 pm

@ quickkid!
LOL! No need to apologize; just pik'n with ya! But yeah, my question was regarding other bands recording KNOWING my own faults. Like, I know where my shortcoming are, but I have the time to keep doing take after take to get it right. But paying bands that come to record don't have that kind of time (or money). That's why I was asking... what measures do you guys use for bands/songs you know nothing about. It makes sense to have it all in time (makes cutting/pasting loops that much easier), but if it fluctuates, things get harder to dupe. Know what I mean?

@Dematrix
I'm kinda leaning to what you said for a few of our songs. Maybe forgive some of the off-time and just let the vibe/track layers fend for themselves. Me personally.. I have a bad habit of speeding up as the song progresses. I think its a drummer thing though (we get excited with our double-kicks)!

Quote:
your drums are bang on anyway mate so all good.
.
20 takes later and lots of punch-ins!!! :)


http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jan 22, 2013 09:25 pm

yeah man, IMHO, when the drums are too perfect timing wise or even playing wise, i find the whole song then can be a little boring. i guess it depends on other factors a well but it def lacks the fire sometimes.

Member
Since: Jan 30, 2011


Jan 22, 2013 09:53 pm

If I may throw 2 more cents in, I think it depends on the style of music. Some songs/styles demand quantize-perfect drums. But I feel like most of the time, it feels a lot better if there is a strong "human" presence to the drums. And as a fellow drummer, I know what you mean about the tendency to speed up. And I'm rubbish at double kick :(

I still feel like a jerk too. We cool hippity doo-da?

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jan 22, 2013 11:29 pm

Deleted By Dematrix

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Sep 01, 2014 12:58 pm

There is always the best way, the worst way and the way that works.

Some folks can nail a metronome others can't hit it two measures in a row. Some bands can get "tight" from rehearsing, others just never make the mark. Place a couple of mics and record the band live to get an idea what you are working with. If they can't land a groove live it's doubtful they will do it in the studio. You can try giving them music lessons but that is a long term proposition. If they can land a groove, but just can't seem to work with a met, you might try recording one member, preferably bass or kit while that person is listening to the live recording with a groove. Now you will have a starting point. Not perfect in terms constant tempo, but perfect in terms of what they can do. Some bands are just better left un-recorded.

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