Making piano/strings sound TRANSPARENT to eachother?

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Member Since: Sep 03, 2008

Dear Anyone.

Right now I'm too embarrassed to post anything, because I know EXACTLY what the problem is but I have no idea what to do about it...

Imagine Kevin Kern/Mike Rowland/Tol & Tol (they're all over YouTube like a rash!) Especially with Tol & Tol, you get great SOLID walls of strings - yet the lead instrument, usually piano, is still transparently clear over the top of them all. Now it's not masking the strings out, as if you had a background mural and slapped a poster on top. It's more as if you saw the same mural through a stained-glass window - you'd see the window clearly, it would colour the part of the mural immediately behind it but you'd still see that part and all the rest of the mural through/around it.

That's GOTTA be something to do with EQ, no? But I've been trying for (seriously and literally) the best part of 8-9 years now to get someone to show me how the heck to do that trick. I've spent untold hours EQ-ing frequencies, panning, compressing... Flat can't do it. Can't even make it sound as transparent as people here do when they post their mixes grumbling about how bad they sound. Folks, rest assured, there's always someone worse and I'm it.

Why I haven't posted anything of mine - yet - is because I know only too well what every problem is and I want to be able to get rid of at least a couple of them before I post! The main one is this trick of being able to hear the strings THROUGH the piano/piano THROUGH the strings, NOT the piano plastered ON TOP of the strings! Besides, I usually get the strings plastered all over the piano. Imagine a house behind a row of trees. Now imagine the trees were made of glass....

I want to make my strings of glass, so they're there, powerful, but you can hear the piano/main instrument through them, like with Tol & Tol, Kevin Kern etc. Once I can do THAT much, I'm happy to post to get further critique.

Yours with embarrassment

ulrichburke (a.k.a. Chris!)

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Uh, at least one more time . . .
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007


Feb 03, 2012 08:57 pm

Perhaps you really don't know what the problem is, after all . . . and I don't know if I'd characterize a good mix as a trick. The whole idea here is to post up what you've got, and perhaps some of the folks here can point to what you need to try. I wouldn't worry about embarassment at all at this point. In the meantime, I think I'll listen to those artists you've named (never heard of 'em).

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Feb 04, 2012 02:23 am

Chris, rest assured, however bad you -think- your work is, most of us have probably heard far far worse, some of which actually makes it into the market somehow.

Think of the HRC, as like a classroom, or maybe even a master class workshop kinda deal. We are all here to help each other out, and by helping each other we in turn improve our own understanding and techniques.

You have nothing to lose posting a track or a snippet, and at least something to lose by not posting, and not getting some constructive feedback.. Many of us here are self-taught. Some of us went through schooling (like Quincy) and some of us are even doing work in the industry. (which is where I'm hoping to get my butt one of these days)

I remember another poster had some similar problems with strings and piano, and we were listening/helping him out, and he improved greatly after taking our critiques into consideration.

Hearing what is actually going on can help us help you, and it may be nothing to do with EQ/compression :)

In fact, when I work with orchestral/acoustic elements, as a rule I try to -not- use EQ/compression if I can get away with it. Though an orchestra (and classical music in general) can be very dynamic, so very very light/sparing use of compression can help reign in the contrasts between loud and soft. EQing, however, I tend to avoid, as the different timbres and idiosyncrasies of the different instruments/strings tend to compliment each other moreso than any creative EQing. And sometimes you want strings ranges/frequencies to overlap as for when the composer has lines where the strings are playing in unison. A viola covers most of the range of the violin, and even down into the cello's range partly. A cellos is capable of playing up into part of the violin's range as well. However, the timbre is somewhat different, so even if they are both playing in the same range, it is not necessarily muddy or jumbled sounding, rather they resonate well together.

Now, depending on what libraries I'm using/have access to, I'll use a bit of EQ on an overall section. Too much rumble in the strings/contrabss, then yeah, I might see about notching/rolling that off. Or, (as my brass/strings can sometimes sound a bit tinny) I'll use a little boost in the upper mids to try to make the orchestra as a whole sound a bit more lush. But I tend not to EQ the lead parts or individual instruments. I tend to do things as a whole, or by category/section.

This is more for straight up classical music, but I use the concepts when I'm mixing electronic instruments in as well. (like I did with my Gradius Remix up on my sound cloud)

Main thing I try to do is make sure the various elements (the players) are organized via panning (at least as close as I can manage) as they would appear in the sections in an orchestra chart. Though, different sizes of orchestra may have slightly different seating arrangements vs. left to right. But generally, percussion in the back, then brass, woodwinds around the middle, and strings up front. Typically more treble instruments are to the left, with more bassey instruments to the right. Though sometimes, I'll juxtapose the arrangements. I'll usually keep the strings in the general arrangement, but for the brass, I may place trumpets to the right and tubas toward the left. Though, that is often my own personal preference.

Strings panning I might go as far as -50% to +50%, adjusting to taste, depending on reverb, or how large I want them to sound. brass I might go -30 to +30, with woodwinds maybe -20 to +20, and percussion more towards the center, depending on how big you want them to sound. These are just very ballpark values. Trumpets/brass generally sit back further, and can easily overpower strings/woodwinds. So I try to keep them under control by lowering the volume, and maybe giving them a little more reverb than the other instruments.

A lot of it depends on the actual size of the individual sections. If it's a small chamber string section, they might be easily overpowered by brass, or even woodwinds. But a very large string section might overpower the woodwinds, etc. etc.


I may have gone into that farther than I meant, but I hope it helps. Though you may have already considered those aspects, and it may not even apply to the music you're working with. Anyway, post something, and then we can really give some ideas as to what would be the best route to try to get the sound where you want it.

Uh, at least one more time . . .
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007


Feb 04, 2012 01:20 pm

So, I listened to those groups. Their arrangements are very simple and straight-forward, and I'm sure someone here can point you in the right direction.

Frisco's Most Underrated
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Feb 06, 2012 04:31 pm

Think of a mix like a journey. You've showed us where you want to go, but you haven't showed where you are starting from. Should we try and help by giving directions from Chile to Rio de Janeiro, or from Johannesburg to Rio de Janeiro....

Ok forgetting the stupid analogy, it really helps to hear something. Most of us are indeed self taught and many of us learned our mixing techniques by listening to the advice on this board. Honestly, if you would have heard my first mixes.... ugh.

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