stuck in mastering, am i missing a piece of the puzzle, if so, what piece?

> > > stuck in mastering, am i missing a piece of the puzzle, if so, what piece?

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Member Since: Feb 18, 2011

OK, 1st, details;
me,10yrs live reinforcement engineer, been self learning home digital desktop studio recording for almost a year(been coming to this forum for info the whole time, just now registered,& i would like to say to the guru's that r on this forum, i do understand the huge world of difference between live & studio & i am humbled by your knowledge & brilliance, in other words, in my opinion, as soon as i set out to learn it for myself, i came to realize that, compared to the many, unexpected, & complicated challenges of studio, live is a walk in the park, but, thanx in large part to forums such as this 1, I'm not doin so bad at it, if i say so myself)
music;
METAL,i.e.Fear Factory, Dethklok, etc., i am 41 so my influences in composition tend to be old school, but sonically speaking i am definitely shooting for new school.
Composition; all me
Performance; well, i play guitar so that is all me,
Vox; all me,
as far as rest, all other instruments are sequenced replacement/samples but i made a specific effort to make it not sound like i sequenced the whole band(sans guit.& vox) i.e. if someone did not know, i would like to think they would, say, wonder who the drummer is, or ask who's playin bass.
u know, little details, like, all samples are of real instruments as opposed to generated or synthesized in origin(unless applicable, such as keys, etc.), & making sure all drumming is physically achievable with 2 arms & 2 legs, for xample; u wont hear the H.H. still going when there is also a full on tom role goin on.
that maybe more info then necessary, if so, i apologize.
The issue;
Ive made it all the way to mastering & am quite pleased with what i have got, i would like to think that i have picked up the studio nack quite well, frankly speaking, this stuff sounds bad #ss, i say this not to gloat, because in no way is it easy or do i think i know it all, if i did, i wouldn't be here, would i?
so, as i said, currently mastering, specifically speaking Ive been burning to disk, or saving to jump, listening to on various different platforms/environments, taking notes, making adjustment according to notes, & repeat.
been doin this for bout 3 weeks to a month, probably done the whole cycle 5 maybe 6 times, & have used a wide variety of platforms not just all the same ones each time.
& hear is where i seem to be stuck(i know, bout time, right).
1st i want to point out that i have "been to" compression boot camp(totally awesome),& i feel as though Ive got a good grasp of compression & applying it to mastering.
that being said, y does my stuff still sound so "coarse" at higher volume, its not clipping, or distorted, but more like a potential loss of clarity, or definition, & really a nuance or aspect that is best described as "coarse", or maybe "harsh" but "harsh" implies issues that i am not having, i don't think its so bad as to be termed "harsh".
when comparing to store bought pro release, i actually hear allot more that i like, sonically, from my stuff which makes me wonder if i just need to continue working with smashing(comp) until its as smooth loud as it is quiet, at the cost or loss of some of that stuff i hear in mine that i don't hear in the pro stuff. for xample; new dethklok, kiks sound like pencils on desk, or all pat with no boom, mine still got plenty of boom(along with pat) do i simply need to xcept that i may not be able to have it all like i want it, or better put; am i asking for more going on sonically then one can ask for & still achieve a final product that is universally nominal or that sounds good & safe on all listening platforms from top end to bottom end quality.
So does this all make any sense, i hope so.
i would appreciate any enlightenment anyone may have to offer.
sorry so lengthy, this is my 1st time posting a topic at a forum, ever, in my life, believe it or not, so please do have patience with my ignorant, back woods, non forum posting ways.
thanx
PS or is it maybe that i need to back step and work a bit more with compression on some of the individual tracks?
also i should point out that the "coarse" issue is not as prevalent on higher end(quality) platforms as it is on lower end ones but is still noticeable.
(another descriptive word that comes to mind when i think about it visually instead of sonically is "jagged" or "serrated") if that makes any sense,

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MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008

Feb 19, 2011 02:23 am

There can be a zillion different things that can cause 'fatigue-like' distortion (assuming that's where you're going here). Most of the time when I encounter this (and I encounter it a LOT), it comes down to a simple lack of headroom.

Too many people try to use up all their headroom at every possible step -- The point should be having a LOT of headroom at every possible step.

With top-shelf gear that can run 'near the red' while staying reasonably linear, it's not as big of a problem (but it's still a problem). With 'more typical' (for lack of a better term) it can be a huge problem.

More here if you're bored... www.massivemastering.com/...ding_Levels.php

Member
Since: Feb 18, 2011

Feb 19, 2011 01:26 pm

yeah, that all makes sense,
u say u encounter it allot, so that's probably what it is I'm hearing.
i am using some what top shelf gear so that would xplane y its a subtle issue but still a noticeable one.
& i assume when u say "The point should be having a LOT of headroom at every possible step" that would include the finished product also, which i had just assumed would be ok to go ahead & use up any room i got left cuz, well, u know, im done, but, if i understand u correctly, this is not necessarily so, & it is better to have headroom left over still even though u r done,correct? I do admit that, with my final stereo mix i have been trying to get everything out of it i can get,like, for xample,bringing my whole.mix level up to where its just barely grazing 0db,my red line in audition, then throwing a hard limit at -0.02db on the whole thing as a final step, & even though that does keep the meters from hitting the red that's still just way to close , isn't it, that's probably xactly where i am creating my issue, isn't it? i new it was to good to be true,lol. so i should leave my level where its at(usually right around -3db to -5db).after I'm done eq'ing, compressing, & limiting & am pleased with the results, & forget about the whole final raising & hard limiting, in an effort to get every little bit of output i can get right?
i texted my "thinking it all through" like this so that u could read it & let me know if i could use some further elaboration, or if it sounds like I'm grasping the clue u r tryin to give me,
so let me know.
& thank u for the enlightenment.MassiveMaster, it is very much appreciated.
Peace

Member
Since: Feb 18, 2011

Feb 19, 2011 03:32 pm

so, after checking out your site,very impressive by the way, i should point out that i actually figured out the whole tracking too hot issue the hard way, about a year ago with my first attempted song, being a live engineer i went with what i knew & brought in all the trax with as much as i could get, & just as u say should happen, i ended up with negative headroom massive clipping, , & a big, noisy, mess, & just through my own rethinking, coincidentally, i came up with that same -12 to -15dbfs, give or take, as a safe place for my trax to live.so now i am wondering if the issue i am having, which is normally attributed to the hot track issue, can also be attributed to the fact that someone, who, say, is doing ok with tracking levels, but is, or has been, still taking that same kind of "loudness war" attitude or approach when mastering after its all been brought together as left & right, in such a way as i stated i was doing in my last post,(that final "raise to 0db & hard limit at -0.02db thing i been doin)or, actually,i guess the? is;is -0.02dbfs just too close for clean, regardless of the fact that my meters do not indicate any clipping whatsoever & would this create the fatigue distortion issue i seem to be having ?

Member
Since: Feb 18, 2011

Feb 19, 2011 03:46 pm

or is it simply that, for one reason or another, the "-12 to -15dbfs safe place" still isn't safe enough & i simply need to get "safer" with my tracking(this would be the solution i fear the most, considering that it would mean retracking everything,& that would definitely "burst" my almost finished bubble)

Member
Since: Feb 18, 2011

Feb 19, 2011 04:23 pm

i just realized that, due to the fact that i am experiencing a quite serious "the more i learn, the more i wonder", problem, my posts have become redundant, & for this i do apologize, & I wait patiently for your reply & will post no more posts on the subject.unless indicated as necessary,by u in your reply..

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008

Feb 20, 2011 12:19 am

Maybe posting a sample would help some...

> > > stuck in mastering, am i missing a piece of the puzzle, if so, what piece?

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