Setting up condensor and dynamic mics - Guitar
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Posted on Jan 29, 2011 06:53 pm
pipedreams
Marijuana Czar
Member Since: Oct 01, 2009
Hey i wanna record my amp with a shure sm58 and a behringer c-1 condensor but i dont know what to do
i heard about things like phasing and wasn't sure what that was about
so how do i set them up?
it cant be as simple as just placing them in front of the amp right?
cheers
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cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jan 29, 2011 10:40 pm it more or less is just placing them infront. The condensor is gonna be more sensitive and things if u plan on cranking the amp so it will likely be ur "distance mic" and itll be back a good few meters. When u listen to it ull be trying to hear both low end body in the sound as well as the room ur micing.
The sm58 will be ur close mic, u can read guides on how to do that coz there r several ways (center, off center, down facing etc)
Ur main concern of phase is legitimate, they have rules on how to best work with phase, but in my experience (and my laziness) i dont watch out too much for phase, becoz nowadays u can line up waveforms in ur DAW very easily and use other things like delay and EQ to fix the phase post micing. That doesnt mean u should just haphazardly throw up mics and go, definitely listen to each mic solo'd and be sure theyh sound good, then combine and see if anything is missing. U wanna be listening for things hollowing out or getting excessive in different ranges. Dont rely on scopes n things that r advertised to tell u about phase, its a different application and really an ears only endeavor.
Jan 30, 2011 01:20 am mad ****, yeah that makes sense
i was reading guides and things about phasing but its all jargon to me
ill just watch out for anything vanishing and use my ears, cheers
as for mixing, i plan to just mix the 2 together into 1 channel
theres alot of options at this point to get a dif guitar sound
by putting the condensor mic fader up first then slowly adding the dynamic, eq-ing either by bus or individual channel, compression etc...
here i was thinking that the pro's just stood up a mic and recorded.
there are many things to learn lol
Jan 30, 2011 01:50 am hey i noticed that when putting a phaser on the combined recording of condensor and dynamic mics it doesnt work right, it sounds like a fluttered version of a phaser, even if i tempo sync it so like 1/4 so its noticable (well it usualy is on everything else i use 1/4 for) - it still doesnt sound like the settings i put in.
just a thought, = is this the phaser interacting with the phase of the combined mics?(still havnt matched em up yet btw haha, stuck to the couch)
= and is a phaser and mic phase related?
i know that question sound dumb but the last time i said amplitube instead of amplitude someone nearly ripped my head off lol
i like to verify
cheers - pipe
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jan 30, 2011 03:09 am wat do u mean by phaser? like a phaser effert? like an MXR phase 90?
if it is, the phaser is an effect, it doesnt align phase. A phaser effect would bek ind of like if u ran in circles with one of ur two mics while recording, but it wont fix a phase problem. A phaser is an effect based off the phenomenon of phasing, but isnt a phase related tool.
and wat do u mean into 1 channel? thast fine if u mean ur grouping them in ur DAW just to make it easy to work with both of them at the same time, but i wouldnt recommend recording the two mics into one track, coz u wont be able to phase align them after.
I would suggest also flipping ur idea about bringing up the dynamic under the condensor. Bring up ur distance mic under ur close mic always, since the close mic is wat u will like usually to make up the meat of ur sound.
u can eq them individually to make up for phase problems, as well as align, but i personally use compression and overall tonal EQing in a gruop channel.
Jan 30, 2011 05:22 pm ah ok ill switch that around then but im gonna try matching the phase in reality before usin plugins, but if all else fails..
and by the phaser i meant in general is phase related to a phaser, but i assume it is from yr answer about the mic running in circles aha
sirhcChrisMember
Since: Aug 25, 2008
Jan 30, 2011 06:31 pm tbh, as soon as you use two mics, there will be phasing issues unless the mics are the same distance from the amp...
especially if the condenser will be a few meters back, the waves coming from the amp dont speed up to get to the other mic at the same time :)
basically all phasing is is the timing of the waves... so just after recording into seperate tracks, zoom in on both untill you can see the line of the wave.. it will look sin-ish,
your gunna wanna look for a really noticeable spike, so that you can match the peak up on both trracks, because litttle peaks can be similar to the peak one or more wavelengths forward/backword in time....
hoope this helps... this is all from grade 11 physics haha
Feb 02, 2011 08:03 am lol that guy has a weird way of using language
about phase cancellation, does this mean that if i have a vocal track recorded with a mic, and a tambourine track recorded with a mic that they will cancel each other out?
or...?
also, the 3:1 rule, anyone had luck with this? does it actually work, i tried it today on a guessing-basis of measurement and it didnt do too much better.
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 02, 2011 10:44 am things will only phase each other out if they are basicaly the same source. Two guitars played at different times, in teh exact same setup still wont phase noticeably or problematicaly because their r minute differences in their waveforms that distinguish them, so u dont have to worry about phasing really unless ur mutli-micing one source
i dont personally use the 3:1 so i dont know, i dont like rules like that really coz i dont wanna spend sessions measuring things out. I like to just go by ear.
plus like i said originally, nowadays its so easy to re-align waveforms its not a HUGE deal to get it all right off the bat as long as there isnt some horrible misplacement
Feb 02, 2011 10:47 am alright cool
would you mind telling me how to re-align the waveforms?
i zoom in on something but thats all i know
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 02, 2011 12:03 pm To re-align the waveforms, zoom in on a spot where you see a significant peak. Drag the peaks of the waveform until they line up. This only will work on waves that have been recorded at the same time IE: using 2 or 3 mics to record a guitar.
Feb 02, 2011 06:38 pm ahhhuh i see, would i zoom in one 1.. suss its waves, then go zoom in on the other and move it like half a second forward to match it?
what exactly do you mean drag the peaks?
this is all over my head lol
thanks for the link btw, good read
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 02, 2011 10:45 pm basically, ur distance mic (or watever ur 'secondary' mic is) will have its wave slightly off time from the main one. U just have to match them up so taht the two waves r going up and down (up as in reaching a peak) in time. U more or less match ur distance to ur close, since ur close will be "on time", once u zoom in and see the waves it should make sense
Feb 03, 2011 02:24 am i see what you mean i think, are you talking about the bumps in the waveform if you zoom in?
if so, then what do i do next.. do i take the second track and cut 0.68 miliseconds from the start so they play on time?
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 03, 2011 04:42 am yes the bumps, but u dont cut, u... scooch? just make the second one line up with the first by moving it (most likely back)
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 04, 2011 01:31 pm just to add a bit, the bumps you refer to is a SINE wave, or waveform. It has positive swing, which goes above the center line, and negative swing, which goes below the center line.
If you record 2 mics, then hopefully when MIC 1 signal swings UP, the MIC 2 signal does the same exactly. Sometimes they will swing a little off-time from each other. This will create your phase issues.
Usually, to fix this, you can grab one of the waveforms and slide it ever-so-slightly forward or back, so the two waveforms are aligned. So both positive swings start and end at the same time.
You can get plugins to fix this for you (can't think of any ATM) but I think it's better just to align them when zoomed way in.
Even better still, like mentioned above, listen to the incoming signal before you capture it, so you can see if there's any phasing issues. Then moving MICs will usually clear up any issue.
But moving a waveform back or forward a few samples seems pretty harmless to me.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 04, 2011 03:36 pm In my case, all wave forms start right at the beginning so a cut (or trimming) is required before scooching ;)
Feb 04, 2011 06:45 pm ive had SOME luck with cutting or trimming a few mili seconds off the 2nd track, sounds a lil better.
im still confused about "dragging" the waveform, i cant drag anything on edison in fruity loops, is this dragging done with a tool? or is it just the same as trimming a few mili's off the start of the 2nd track so the signal's align?
also another option im gonna try when a mate comes over to play the guitar while i tweak is:
put a "phase polarity reverse invert something something" on the second mic and get my mate to play while i move around the second mic until he hears as close to no noise as possible, then i come back and turn off the invert thing and then it's apparently in phase.
is there any truth to that? and if so, then what is a vst that can do this phase inverting?
thanks for all the info mangz
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 05, 2011 12:31 pm cutting in cpttripps case is so he can move it, but "moving" is the operative word here. Even if u cut off sound from teh beginning of ur waveform, that doesnt "move" it, and from ur statements im not sure if ur moving it, but if ur getting results then maybe u r?
anyhow, i dont know if FL can do that, but most DAWs can.
On the inverse polarity thing, thats one kind of phase fix, but im not familiar with the technique ur using and i cant imagine how it would work. When u flip phase, ur basically turning ur waveform upside down. All the peaks will become valleys, valleys become peaks, this will "align" ur waves, only if ur waveforms were different in this way to begin with (one goes up while the other goes down). If their "timing" is still different, this shouldnt fix the problem completely. Usually ppl invert phase on snare mics, coz u have a top and bottom, their hitting at the same time, but their inverted from eachother. Gutiar micing, will likely not be inverted but rather just slightly off time.
Voxengo has a plugin designed for phase aligning, i dont think its free though, but they make good worthwhile plugs.
but ultimately ur right, if ur listening and thruogh watever process, ur hearing phase get aligned... well thats all u need right?
Feb 08, 2011 04:15 am alright, i better explain what i meant then (i read this "technique" on a few different websites)
I've tried this way:
dynamic mic on channel 1
condensor mic on channel 2 with a vst called "flipper"
[ flipper is apparently a phase polarity switch in vst form
cubase has a polarity switch on each channel but fl studio doesnt
which is why i downloaded the flipper vst ]
then i play the guitar through the amp, which is being picked up by the 2 mics
and then i move the condensor mic around whilest listening to to the incoming signal on my monitors of the 2 mics at the same time, and "look" for the sweetspot when there is no incoming signal as the phase has cancelled each other out.
after that, i go back to channel 2 with the flipper on it, and switch the flipper off, returning the inversion to normal and then play an in-phase guitar.
could someone who knows of this technique explain if im doing it right?
and if not, then what else can i try? the 3:1 rule doesnt seem to work for me, and according to the websites i read its easier to hear little changes when using a polarity switch as opposed to not using one and trying to hear it align with yr ears.
i hear you saying, "why dont you align it after its recorded?"
but i want to get the guitar in-phase before hitting the DAW because i jam alot using my guitar > mic> DAW, and like to get a decent signal to jam around with and experiment by puttin effects on as i play
so an out of phase signal of the guitar isnt ideal if i want to jam with a mate and add effects as we jam. even if i could go back later and align it, it would still sound **** during the time we were actually playing it lol.
long post, but i appreciate everyones input.
we'll get it soon aha
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 08, 2011 11:28 am a non-phase aligned signal shouldnt sound horrible really, especially not horrible enough that it would be "unjammable". It would still allow for the use of effects and everything, and if u want to hear it "unphased" u could jsut mute ur distance mic, itll still record, u just wont hear it if its annoying.
This will give u all the flexibility of aligning after the fact, while also being able to jam.
But that method with the flipper sounds like its on the right track as well, so u know, if it works
