Question for MM

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Czar of Turd Polish
Member Since: Jun 20, 2006

I was listening to your track "washed away" again and I was curious on your OH technique? Would you mind telling me what config you used on them? I know there are a million things that come into play but my toms never seem to be even remotely "there" when I don't close mic em.

I am moving my studio to the next door of my duplex (large open area vs. the 10x12 I've been in) and plan on treating the room. I have tried different setups but always had to keep my OH mics closer in due to the room. I will now have the ability to raise them up and capture the whole kit. Any suggestions on distance and config?

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MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Sep 08, 2010 09:12 pm

Nothing special there... Just a good sounding kit in a good sounding room. I think the overheads were Oktava MC012's. Hard to remember specifics (as it was done so quickly), but I'd bet they were really *over-head* most likely XY (and then most likely one side delayed around 15ms or so to give it that somewhat unnatural width).

Also an important part -- I HIT drums. I always used to soundcheck bands before recording and I'd end up saying "Okay, now try again and stop hitting like a girl - Hit 'em like you're pissed" or something like that.

There's actually a dull hit at around 1:25 -- Didn't come out well at all. There are probably others, but that one is pretty wimpy sounding for sure. 90% of it is the player. I'm not much of a player, but I have a fairly consistent hit.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 09, 2010 07:04 pm

Cool, thanks for the info. As far as me playing drums, my hits are consistent. I do absolutely nothing flashy and just try to concentrate on pounding the drums hard and not so much the cymbals. Most drummers I record are crazy inconsistent (little girl hits up to hits from the almighty Zeus) and quite a chore to make sound nice. My current drummer is quite skilled and pounds everything hard so I'm hoping this project will go well. I just want to make sure and get some toms in the OH so I don't have to rely on the close mics so much.

I tune my drums (need new heads anymore though) and tend to get good tones from the kit via close mics. My cymbals are nothing great but not quite horrible either. I think just getting into this new room with more space and bass traps for the corners (going diy from floor to ceiling) is going to to open my eyes (ears) to a whole new level after recording in an untreated 10x12 for sooooo long.

I do remember your "delay one side" conversation from awhile back and remembering it sounded like something I would like to try. Anywho, thanks again.

Oh yeah, on X/Y I assume you are talking the standard "spaced pair" vs the... ones close together (coincident)?

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Sep 09, 2010 08:46 pm

I mean X-Y as in the elements right on top of one another.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 10, 2010 12:05 pm

Ahhh, very interesting. I like that setup as it keeps me from getting phase problems. With a little fake widening via delay I am very excited to try the new setup. Once again, thanks for your answers.

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Sep 10, 2010 09:52 pm

Keep in mind that once you delay one side, your mono compatibility is at stake -- You're going to have phase issues similar to a spaced pair.

However - It's more controllable and predictable. You can pretty much flip it to mono and start offsetting a ms at a time and you'll hear it go a little 'nutty' and then back to something somewhat normal.

I remember using 17ms often... That had a lot to do with the reflections in the room of course, but you might find that the same settings work over and over in the same space also.

http://www.unitedmusicians.info
Contributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007


Sep 11, 2010 05:24 pm

Hey Cpt! I too felt like the drums on Washed Away were too well captured to have been OH's alone. However, I just got a pair of Fathead II ribbon mic's, and I'm recording drums with them now in Blumlein configuration. I did end up throwing up a Beta 52 clone on the kick and an sm57 on the snare to make the sound really OOMPH...but it wasn't necessary.

Obviously I'm not discounting anything John said, just saying that my cheap SDC mics in XY config weren't nearly as pleasing. These ribbons in a blumlein config seem to rock!


MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Sep 12, 2010 01:25 am

I figured you were going to like those... :-)

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 13, 2010 01:59 pm

I don't use cheap SDC's per say, although not terribly expensive. I experimented with an LDC pair but in my current tiny room it was just to.... "unfocused"? Now, in the future I would love to get some different OH mics as I think my NT5's would be great for hats/ride and backup multi vocals. I think the best sound for me in such a crap sounding room was the recorderman.

Found those fatheads for $399 a pair? Is that a good deal? Reason I ask is that our band fund is currently sitting around $500 and I'm trying to find the best way to spend it for recording our upcoming CD.

My options....

New interface with more channels so we can track live. Quality wouldn't be any better but I think it would drastically improve performance.

New OH mics so I can eliminate the need for CM on toms. This would allow me to "almost" track live (guitars, bass and drums) using my 8 channels.

Last but not least, A decent dual channel pre-amp. I could use this on OH's, dual mic'd guitars and all vocals which would probably help quite a bit.

Suggestions...?

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Sep 13, 2010 05:43 pm

Bayview (Bayview?) was just running a special for *$299* including the bar.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 13, 2010 05:53 pm

Hmmm, that sounds like a fantastic deal on a pair of well-liked ribbons. Any opinion on my mentioned options?

I think the new interface is going to provide the least benefit except for being able to track the whole band live. New OH's would be sweet in my new larger room but... I just have a feeling picking up the RNP8380 might be a great thing overall as it would benefit drums, guitars, bass and vocals.

Opinions...?

edit: just checked bayview, they are at $400 with the Blumlein bar. Sale must have ended :(

http://www.unitedmusicians.info
Contributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007


Sep 15, 2010 02:29 pm

Send me an email and I'll forward the coupon to you if you'd like

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 15, 2010 06:58 pm

Eh, I am still in a complete tossup on what to do with our cash. I dropped the "more input interface" option but still cannot decide between a nice pair of ribbons or a nice pair of pre's. I have access to a pair of SM81's if needed but I don't know anyone who would let me borrow a decent pre.

So confused....

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Sep 15, 2010 07:43 pm

you could borrow mine Cap, But you'd have to come over and get it.

http://www.unitedmusicians.info
Contributor
Since: Nov 11, 2007


Sep 15, 2010 07:45 pm

Have you seen the shootout on "that other, purple, forum" between the ART tube pre and a Great River?? I don't know if it's conclusive of anything, but I was fooled. tinyurl.com/2eqyxzy

The difference between my ribbon mic and my MXL 990 LDC is VERY noticeable.

I definitely could use more headroom on my cheap m-audio pre-amps, but I don't have the dog ears to hear the difference in quality between my API and my M-Audio pre's...but I guess I haven't done a true A/B between them. For now, in my youthful ignorance, having grown up with Napster and Mp3's as my source of music, I'm into the "it's good unless it sounds bad" vs "it's bad unless it sounds good".

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002


Sep 15, 2010 09:40 pm

just my 2 cents but id really lean towards gettin good ribbons if u dont have a totally crap pre, if its relatively low noise and ok output i think the ribbons would give u more bang for the buck. Ive seen alot of studio vids with bands recording into one of the fatheads (i want one so bad!), whole bands acoustic though, but yeah. I mean if u can get more dimension or even better coverage with one or two mics, who needs the extra inputs?

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 16, 2010 12:13 pm

Good point crux and kind of what I was thinking when I axed the "new interface" idea. If I can capture those drums with 4 mics that leaves 2 guitars, 1 bass and a vocal. That is live "enough" to get a good feel and then track dbl guitars, backups etc...

Also true Quincy, my only thoughts were that my K2 with a 57 through the RNP would probably sound fantastic on my guitar cabs. Also, I have never tried the NT5's in a nice room and am therefore am unsure of how good they can sound. In the end your first hand esxperience, the MM approval and a dozens of reviews online have swayed me.

Time to talk to the band and hook it up with some ribbons. Some of our cash is an instore credit at the local music shop so we almost have to go through them but; if that coupon brings it near $300 we may be able to do a cash purchase.

Sending you an e-mail quincy.

And really, thanks for the input all. It is much appreciated and I feel very comfortable going forward now.

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