Gain
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Posted on Feb 19, 2010 09:55 am
Fragile
Member Since: Sep 30, 2009
I've been reading up a little more on gain lately. And i sort of understand it but not quite. Massive definitely made me reconsider how hot i should be recording, but im still unsure where i should be recording.
First off. some terminology. Unity, is this 0dB or something? Any idea where that is on the UX2? And i want to be recording below that usually, right? Yaaa, i have no idea on gain stuff lol.
And clipping, now as i understand it, after something is recorded, and past all the analog stages, it won't really clip without me for certain knowing, correct? Its either perfectly clean or sudden devilish smashing in your ears. If thats the case, then what is the deal with the clip indicator on my UX2 or in cubase? The lights on the UX2 go off sometimes on professional music, and honestly i have no idea what they really indicate. I don't HEAR clipping really when the lights are red. Can i keep turning the volume up in my DAW even if the clip indicator lights up?
And lastly, how hot should i be recording? Volume is important to me, and these tracks won't ever be mastered. If i ever look at my songwriting in a more serious light, i can always re record at a softer volume level. Though i would obviously like to get the best quality sounds i am able to.
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cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 19, 2010 10:57 am Im quite interested to see the answers to this post as well as im really in the dark on this whole gain thing and i get the feeling that im missing something HUGE
on the UX2 hoewver my KB37 does the same thing, i think since the meters measure the "output" its not checking if ur source is clipping, but only if ur output is too loud, like too loud for the hardware to deal with safely
my 2 cents
Feb 19, 2010 11:11 am mmm. So you think its checking hardware clipping? Thats what i would assume too, but i run everything threw a PA system, which i keep at a fairly high volume. And so the output on my UX2 is set quite low actually. Especially when others in my house are sleeping, and it does still light up sometimes. There's always room for me to be wrong however :P
Feb 19, 2010 11:14 am I kinda always look at those like the peak lights on my stage amplifiers over the years, more just saying "hey, *******, you're pushing it".
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Feb 19, 2010 11:46 am same, I mean its not about how much ur UX2 is pushing out to the PAs (volume knob etc) but how much it feels is being fed to it, so remember ur media player/DAW has a volume control, and ur desktop and other things. I guess its just easy to hit that mark that the unit thinks is pushing it, even if there r no noticeable effects. Also notice taht those two little VUesque meters on Line 6's gear hit max with almost ANYTHING u do, those clip lights mean almost nothing sometimes
Feb 19, 2010 12:50 pm Unity is +/- 0dB. And one of the only times you'll ever correctly see "dB" without the reference (dBFS, dBVU, dBm, dBV, dBSPL, etc.).
"Unity" is "in = out" -- No gain, no attenuation.
On a preamp with an *output* stage (or any console where you're taking the *console* outputs instead of the direct output of the preamp), it's simply the point where you aren't adding or subtracting gain from the *input* stage (the head amp itself).
Typically, you want to set your head amp (a.k.a. 'pre-gain') to give you a signal somewhere around 0dBVU. Depending on how your converters are calibrated, this will give you a digital signal somewhere between -20 and -15dB(FS)RMS with peaks somewhere below -10dBFS. Less transient signals on the lower side, more transient on the higher side.
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And lastly, how hot should i be recording? Volume is important to me, and these tracks won't ever be mastered. If i ever look at my songwriting in a more serious light, i can always re record at a softer volume level. Though i would obviously like to get the best quality sounds i am able to.
That's all in this thing: www.massivemastering.com/...ding_Levels.php
And as much as I hate "loud" I can certainly be realistic here...
Think of volume - or more correctly, the potential for high apparent volume as a "reward" (for lack of a better term) for plenty of clean headroom.
This happens all the time - literally every day, here...
Projects come in that were very obviously tracked "hot" - They sound "small" and spectrally questionable - dynamically - unfocused, skewed, "two dimensional" etc., etc. When you try to "push" something like that, it doesn't appreciate it. Other projects come in with nearly ridiculous amounts of headroom - and it's pretty obvious when it was applied at every stage in the game - and those are the projects where you can 'point at instruments' in the mix - focused, clear, clean, crankable.
Let's throw numbers around -- Say a project that was recorded with obscene amounts of headroom comes in with a crest of 20dB. Another, tracked "hot" comes in with a crest of 15dB.
Obviously, the "hot" one is already 5dB 'louder' -
But ram both of those into limiters and you'll generally find the "hotter" one falls apart readily - Maybe 2-3dB of limiting is all it will take before it's more or less unlistenable. The one with all the headroom though - You might be able to bring it's apparent volume up *10* decibels before it starts to really complain about it.
Not that volume should be the deciding factor - But the only reason that "volume" was easier to achieve was that *QUALITY* was higher.
The same thing works at later stages -- Pick a CD that was finished at ridiculous levels -- Wolfmother is a favorite. Pop it in and start cranking it up until the system doesn't sound right anymore. It won't take much -- It'll be very fatiguing very quickly, the speakers will orbit oddly, the tweeters will distort easily even at fairly low SPL's in the room. Now pick a CD that was finished at "loud" but "reasonable" levels -- Metallica's "Black" album is a personal favorite. Throw that on the home stereo and crank it up. Okay, keep cranking it up. Still sounds great? Keep cranking it up (but be careful not to liberate the speakers). You can play that album MUCH louder and it still sounds clean and clear without the speakers complaining, without the converters complaining, without your ears bleeding.
That "reasonably conservative" level equates to much more "volume potential" on playback - just as reasonably conservative levels at early stages of recording equates to more volume potential at later stages of processing.
Feb 19, 2010 04:33 pm I read that article once or twice before actually, some of it is still going over my head of course but i'll get there. Loved the steak reference lol.
I see what you're saying though. One of my concerns however is if i don't record hot enough, either cubase will indicate that its clipping (and again, so are we saying basically disregard the clip light as more of a warning"?) Or i won't ever be able to get enough volume. But hmm. Now that i think about it, i should be able to up the volume in my DAW more without indicating clipping if the track is quieter to begin with.
I think before i record the vocals on my next project i'll do some experimenting like you've mentioned before, recording one hot and one... cold? lol. and compare the difference.
Final thing, how do i check the dBFS peaks?
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 19, 2010 04:55 pm it's OK if you don't get enough volume while mixing. That just means that you have plenty of headroom. You can make louder things louder and softer things softer that way. Just make up the difference by adjusting the output volume of your monitoring setup.
When it comes time to get the volume up to a satisfactory level, having the extra headroom will be an asset when you run it through a compressor/soft limiter. From what I gather from MM's articles, having that extra headroom will actually make the mix respond much better to overall compression than if you had mixed it really hot.
That's my understanding at least. It's OK if your waveforms are puny looking in your track view in Cubase. And its OK if the waveform of your mixdown is puny looking as well. As long as you're not battling excessive noise when you bring it up to volume with a compressor or whatever final-stage do-it-yourself mastering you're doing, then a quieter mix should respond better to this step than a hotter mix.
Feb 19, 2010 05:16 pm Okay, makes sense. I've always been worried i wouldn't be able to compensate enough, but heck, i've never even touched the output fader yet. For some reason, something in my mind just made me assume making the volume up there would be a mistake. But i'm starting to have some light shed on this topic now.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Feb 19, 2010 05:25 pm Hopefully I have the correct interpretation of this new way of thinking of input levels...I'm sure that I'll be swiftly corrected if not :-)
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Feb 19, 2010 07:50 pm i usually, get my pre amp output at +1 to +2dBVU, however i get it there.
then i compress to 0dBVU.
Its a little different with these amp modeling proggies though,
i gotta turn the "pre" section of my pre amp, up to something like 35dB. on the dial before i can get it loud enough.(guitar straight in into pre amp.)
i dunno if im doing that right or not but seems ok so far.
guitar sits around or just under 0dBVU.
Feb 19, 2010 08:16 pm I'm not sure where the clipping light (from a few posts ago) thing comes from... You're never going to get clipping if you record *too* low...
As for wave forms - Keep in mind that those have the ability to indicate anything up to full-scale. A typical tracking session is going to look like a bunch of thin little lines and short spikes on the drum tracks. Once you mix it all together, it *might* start to look "normal" -- Keeping in mind that the levels people are trying to push these days is ANYTHING but "normal" by any reasonable standard...
But even with *my* tracking levels (which are lower than I ever would actually suggest to anyone else), it's incredibly rare to wind up not having to attenuate something to keep the 2-buss from clipping... But I might have to attenuate a few things a few dB or so - As opposed to having to attenuate *everything* 12-15dB just to get started.
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Final thing, how do i check the dBFS peaks?
It's probably the only thing your DAW is showing.
Feb 20, 2010 12:54 am You definitely make a good argument massive (as you should, your occupation is mastering!). Honestly. I wonder why its so common to do any other way. Like you said, why turn everything down to start with. Before my next tracking session after i'm done writing this song i'll be sure to reread as much on this as i can and run some trial tests. Just to clear one final thing up though, with digital stuff its fine to crank it way past 0 dB right? i think you said with digital clipping its like "crystal clean, crystal clean, CLIPPPPP"
does digital stuff usually clip after a certain volume is hit, or is it just how much you push it? like, will a "hot" file put out more before it clips digitally?
More than anything i'm just trying to wrap my head around this. I've already decided you're completely right, and recording colder makes more sense.
Feb 20, 2010 02:13 am -0dBFS is the absolute top. You can't go any higher. In 32-bit float, you can *theoretically* push it a bit without audible distortion - That won't translate to fixed integers. And it's really bad form. And it's not making anything louder. Don't clip anything, anywhere - and you don't have anything to worry about. Digitally, of course.
IF YOU MEAN pushing *faders* past unity - that's fine. Whatever you need. Heck, a lot of faders only go to +6 and you have to manually add more gain. That's fine - as long as you're not clipping anywhere -- Not on that track, not on a group, not on an aux and not combined on the 2-buss.
And again - don't think of it as "colder" -- Think of it as "normal."
Overdriving a preamp to 3x nominal voltage just to get an input signal near -2dBFS is what's NOT normal.
