to support our troops....

Posted on

Freeleance Producer/Engineer/Gtr
Member Since: Aug 11, 2002

here's something i've come across and beleive that everyone should do to let our troops know that regardless of our opinions on war, they have our support. www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html

[ Back to Top ]


Contributor
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 02, 2003 03:06 pm

cool link. hopefully a lot of people will partcipate with that.

Phatso
Member
Since: Mar 31, 2003


Apr 02, 2003 03:16 pm

You're right. For the war or against, all of our soldiers deserve to know that we wish them well. Thanx for the link.

Maniacal Genius
Contributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002


Apr 02, 2003 05:01 pm

Thanks el musico! Definitely something we should all participate in.

Freeleance Producer/Engineer/Gtr
Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002


Apr 05, 2003 02:06 am

*bump*

Member
Since: Apr 01, 2003


Apr 05, 2003 10:11 am

Great link. I agree with Guitarlord, no matter whether you are for or against the war you have to respect the ones who are making sacrifices to give you the choice between the two. I've forwarded this link to my entire address book and would urge that all do the same.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 07, 2003 08:41 pm

i support them as well. bring them home now, before they either get blown away in the middle of baghdad or end up coming home with whatever new gulf war syndrome they're going to get.

it doesn't matter if they're "our boys", whether you are their parents, schoolmates, best friends, whatever. give a 20 year old an automatic and tell him to police a people he has been trained to kill, and things will happen that would sicken us.

bring them home instead of screwing up their lives and the lives of an innocent people who are being victimized for living in the wrong place during the wrong time.

if you get your iraq war news from the video game graphics and propaganda reporting of CNN or fox news, think again. we're not going to hear the reality of this war for a long time, as has happened with every war before us.

this war didn't need to happen (unless you're a rich old white man in the white house), and if you truly supported our troops, you'd be posting things about bringing them home rather than "patriotically" condemning them to a life of flashbacks and guilt. wake up.

Contributor
Since: Sep 09, 2002


Apr 07, 2003 10:50 pm

[quote]
MinkusMaz: if you truly supported our troops, you'd be posting things about bringing them home rather than "patriotically" condemning them to a life of flashbacks and guilt. wake up
[/quote]

i think it's important to recognize that there's only so much we can do. Out troops are there and nothing you or I can say or do will bring them back any sooner. Thousands of anti-war protesters were arrested during the first days of "war" when they tried to speak up against the Bush Regime. This is the world we live in, andsometime we have to accept that there are things we have no control over.

I can never agree with murder of any kind, whether my leaders try and justify it as a mission of "freedom" or their laws condemn it as a crime of passion, it's all the same to me. But as long as I can only sit and passivly watch, I'll support our troops, because they are people too, and no one should be forced into that terrible situation. I wish peace for everyone.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 07, 2003 11:58 pm

i agree with you, but the common man's means of speaking up has its most powerful effect simply by realizing what is going on and speaking to others about it. we don't have to mass just to be shot in the back with rubber bullets. educating our friends and family is the most powerful weapon we have. the clear and simple truth is that this war and this entire situation are dead wrong. both are based upon silly fantasies and ideologies which were never realistic in the first place. accepting the conclusion that we should support our troops and support this war equals laying down for the powerful to walk over us. embracing nationalist epithets doesn't help. when it comes to supporting troops, you can either support what they're doing (germans supported their armies incorrectly more than twice) or support their lives and the lives of the people for whom they are supposed to be fighting. our troops are not currently fighting for our freedom, but for the sick dreams and greed of cronies.

thank you for your response. it was very thoughtful and balanced.

Phatso
Member
Since: Mar 31, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 12:22 am

I tried to leave politics out of my last response simply because I firmly dont believe in politics at all. I support our troops because I have friends and family in the military and I wish them well. They chose to join the military of their own accord, and this is the reason they did it. You can call it patriotism, or you can call it the desire to blow the living heck out of things but, whatever you call it, thats what they signed up for. They are there simply because they made the decision to sign a paper and become part of what they are doing. I wish them well and chose not to watch CNN.

My thoughts........Thanx.

Member
Since: Apr 01, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 11:31 am

It amazes me how something as simple as a thread to show support for our troops has turned into a soapbox for anti-war sentiment. Whether you like it or not we're up to our necks in it and that's the way it is.
I'm not trying to get into any type of an argument over this thread and will be the first to agree with most of the statements that have been made here but there have been some "opinions" shared here that are simply that - "opinions".
I agree that there are atrocities happening over there right now that would sicken us and yes, after the fact knowledge has shown us that war is hell. Keep in mind that there are circumstances that have led up to this that we will never be privy to also. If you have not been sickened by the events that have led up to this war that are in-plain-view, general worldwide knowledge (no matter who is reporting it) then you are completely blinded by your own closed opinion.
I have a hard time believing that we are at war right now because W decided to start screwin' around in the Middle East. As far as I'm concerned our action in Iraq right now is a result of years of laying down and watching the U.N. not do what is was intended to. If anyone believes that countries such as Iraq and North Korea are stockpiling right now just to protect their borders they are jaded. The argument that our troops are not fighting to ensure our freedom is ludicrous. If anyone thinks that the actions of the United States government after 9/11 were not nessacary to ensure homeland security they are simply wrong. If nothing else we have shown the world that they will suffer grave consequences for acting towards us in an improper way. Anyone who thinks that the freedoms that we enjoy in this country have not been comprimised since then, is blind. Do you actually believe that the tragedy of that day happened because of the whims of Osama Bin Laden? Do you also believe that had we rolled over and forgave that it would end? I don't. And no I am not confusing issues here. Everything that has happened to this point has dominoed from 9/11 and had been brewing for a long time before that. Our attack on Afganistan and Iraq. There is more than enough proof that every action we have taken has been necassary. Its a shame that 9/11 had to be the wake up call.
I saw that the nazis were mentioned also and I gotta say I'm amazed at the comparison. Yeah, the germans supported Hitler's sick regime and thank God somebody stood up to knock it down. I can't believe that our troop support has been compared to this. Hitler's reign was fueled by hate and fear, much like what can be found all over the Middle East for the western world. Maybe we should have just stood back and let Hitler have his way too. Hell, had we done that we wouldn't be where we are right now. Hitler's ethnic cleansing program would have wiped out the people of the Middle East eventually. There certainly is a comparison here but it has nothing to do with our "blind" support for our troops.
It is a shame that our young men and women have to fight. I don't know what could have been done differently to resolve this issue with Iraq. Did we not go to great lengths and give ample opportunity for Iraq to conform? Did we not give ample warning about the consequences Iraq would face by not coming clean? Have we not stood our ground and kept our word?
I'm sure that I've opened myself up to be slapped around a bit by posting an alternative opinion and that's fine. I also said from the start that I wasn't looking to argue. I almost completely walked away from this subject but couldn't. Maybe I'm not PC enough to. For whatever reason, I am the son of man that did 5 tours of duty in Vietnam. I have first hand experience of the effects that war can have on a human. My father just retired about 5 years ago after close to 40 years of service to his country. He pulled dog tags off of his dead friends, he's nearly deaf in both ears from gunfire and I've heard his screams in the middle of the night trying to deal with things most of us cannot imagine. Never once have I ever heard him ask for anyone's sympathy or praise for the hell he's been through. All he has ever wanted is the same thing that every soldier that that is fighting for us and has fallen for us wants and that is respect. That's all that this thread was intended for in the first place. To show support and respect for doing the job that they signed up to do.
Please also keep in mind that these views are from another "common man" that is just as right and wrong for feeling the way he does about the situation. I would only hope that before the armchair quarterbacks of the world send out their close minded "wake up" call that they weigh the entire circumstances that have forced the hand of the United States government.
MinkusMaz, I truly do respect your opinion and believe it or not agree with most of your points. I would never wish any of this on anyone. The loss of life and the scars that war leave behind are unthinkable but sometimes necessary. I am just offering the other side of the coin and hope that you can respect my opinions also.
God bless our troops and may their efforts not be in vain.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 08, 2003 11:41 am

I agree with the above novel :-)

I know a few people that are over there right now and as a whole most of them were anxious to go and kick Saddams ***.

War sucks, no denying that, and everyone should have a right to say that, but one thing everybody should know is that in Iraq and simialr countries, we would all be killed for the discussion taking place right here.

Saddam is an animal, and who is next in line at that throne, in the words of Rodney Dangerfield let me say "I assure you, it's not the Boy Scouts". It's his sons, who have been killing people since they were young boys.

This is not a family to lead a nation. Agree with disagree with the war, that's your right, but the people in the military are there because it was their choice (and in some cases the judges choice) and ya have to do what you have to do. I would like to see what these tree-huggin hippies would say when they have their leaders drop nerve gas on them and their children.

That's what happened to the Kurds.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 12:21 pm

i respect your opinions, but what you are saying is justification for war is simply the propaganda streaming from the white house. you can't go to war because saddam is a bad man. there are actually far worse dictators in power, but the people who are currently our leaders chose to target iraq back in the 90s in order to ensure israel's security and because he who controls the largest supplies of oil in a world of dwindling resources controls the capability to make war. this isn't a conspiracy theory. these people have made policy papers out in the open for a long time. check out the project for the new american century and get ready to barf knowing what we're doing in the name of this sick dream.

the hand of the US government has not been forced. what we're seeing is more of the same, but with higher stakes. even if iraq were stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, the inspections would have rooted them out. hawks in the white house saying that the inspections are a joke are trying to get you to ignore the fact that the inspection teams are very sophisticated, and that they were turning up the weapons that were unaccounted for.

saddam is not osama. iraq did not threaten us in any way. our paranoia about terrorism is largely unfounded, and only exists because of the shock of 9/11 and our current administration which is only too willing to capitalize on this extraordinary political opportunity.

i apologize for turning this thread into an anti-war (pro-reality) soapbox, but it is the responsibility of people who have researched this to bring out the facts and dispel at least some of the myths surrounding this. it's up to each of us to find what's really going on. i thank you for your calm and balanced replies. it's nice to know that there is a forum where i can connect with people to get info on recording, as well as meet people who can have thoughtful conversations on very difficult topics.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 12:29 pm

also...

www.9-11commission.gov/he...s_kleinberg.htm

one of the widows of 9/11 speaks at the 9/11 commission about the amazing luck that the terrorists needed to have in order to accomplish their mission. at the very least, it's a good read to see exactly how much our leadership botched security, and brings up the question of why no one has been put on trial for incredible negligence.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 08, 2003 12:43 pm

I don't consider the terrorists lucky at all, airports have always been lax and our borders have always been far too open. They simply exploited a terrible security system, which is sad.

Correct, There are dozens of Saddam running countries, and I would personally like to see all of them run out of power.

On one hand I am very glad to see action being taken against a ruthless dictator, regardless if he is the only one or what the motives are. I hear the propoganda, I laugh at it, my wife and I watch CNN and local news for a good chuckle, but for me, the bottom line is, regardless of the real reason, or the fabricated ones, I am glad to see his *** getting kicked.

On the other hand, Mr. Bush seems to be very trigger happy since 9/11 which is not cool at all. BUT, I am glad it was him in office rather than Gore. If Gore was in office during 9/11 he would still be pussy-footing around with "diplomacy" while we had more attacks committed agaianst us.

In order for diplomacy and peace to work, both sides need to want it. Saddam wants 100% control over all he surveys, and really, it's not our job to stop him, but I am glad to see someone stop him, whether us or somebody else.

bace135 in the house tonight!
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 01:09 pm

ah yes, the loaded language.

See, what I don't understand, is when people try to counter any anti-war argument by saying that if we lived in Iraq, we wouldn't even be able to publicly disagree with our leaders.

OK, I think we all understand that. But how does that refute any anti-war argument. Is war justified because people in a foreign land are opressed. Because supposedly that's what we're fighting for. Personally I can't make up my mind on that issue. Are American and Iraqi lives lost worth the betterment of the majority of Iraqi's remaining lives? That's a tough one.

But what gets lost in the issue is that orignally we were going to go in to Iraq because they potentially have arms of mass destruction and chemical and biological weapons. Now, that issue has taken the back seat, and perhaps even the trunk as this has become a "humanitarian" war to free Iraq. Yes, support the troops as individual people put in a tough situation, but that doesn't have to mean support the president and this nonsense regime of ours.

North Korea and Iraq stockpiling weapons for something other than border protection. Who knows. But I do know one thing, we don't. We use our weapons to attack, but that's ok because we're obviously in the right.

P.S. As for the tree hugging hippie statement, I think that was in bad taste. I know many people who are anti war that are neither hippies nor environmentalists. Combining these ideologies with anti war sentimentalists is not very prudent.
I personally consider myself an environmentalist (tree hugger if you want to be derogatory), but am also anti hippie. I'm not necessarily anti-war, but am definitely pro question. AKA what the hell is going on here?!

Final edit: I apologize if anyone takes offense to this post, but I feel how I feel, and I guess there's no sense in hiding it. One love.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 08, 2003 01:36 pm

Quote:
As for the tree hugging hippie statement, I think that was in bad taste.


Fair, but from my experience, incorrect. I work in the downtown area of a large city, my ride home from work has been slowed down because of these protests, and I have seen these protests and the participants from a very close range, and the vast majority of what I see are the same people I see in every protest that takes place in this area. They really just want to protest, regardless of what it's for they get to get out and yell and scream...whether it is for the environment, human rights, political stance, disarmament or anything else.

I am an environmentalist, but do I get out and protest, no, it's a waste of time, I donate my time and money to grassroots movements that lobby and push our beliefs the proper way, the politcal way. Do you think politicians and lawmakers listen to lawbreakers? No, they don't, just like anything else you speak to them in their language, you gain their respect, then and only then do you gain their support. Not by breaking into their offices, cluttering their streets and trying to scare them.

That's my experience and my two cents. The movements I have donated time and money two have actually gotten great things done in my area in regards to waste control, pollution and other envirnmental nightmares.

No coolo, I take no offense, actually, I fully respect your opinion, but I do not agree that hwat I said was in bad taste in the spirit intended, I can't, however, appoligize for interpretation. I do however agree with not having made up your mind, as I really haven't either, 90% of me is totally in support of disarming and de-throning Saddam...but war always sucks.

Member
Since: Apr 01, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 01:55 pm

Well fellas,
I apologize for the novel. Can't say the same for the content.
Like I said, I agree with most of the points made. I completely understand about propaganda and am not stupid enough to believe that it is a one sided thing. I just got done checking out some of the sites that came up under a google search of Project for New American Century and I will be the first to admit that some of the things I read there are completely believable and I'd be a fool to deny that. I plan to go back and further my research there and would like to thank MinkusMaz for directing me there. Being of logical thinking though I must say that it appears to me that there is just as much, if not more BS being slung around there as there is anywhere. Its the art of politics. This is how the game is played. I must say that the only thing that really stuck out to me there was the overwhelming hate for a Republican White House. In that same breath I would also like to say that I have never been one to get involved with politics and world problems but because of the current political situation that our country is in I am proud to say that I know more now that we have a republican white house than I did from the previous administration. As a matter of fact, about all I can remember from that cluster$@&% is Monica Lewinsky's favorite color!! If ever there was a struggle for power and an onslaught of propaganda the likes the world has never seen it happened during the Clinton years and still rages as we speak. Please don't mistake my statements as excuses for the republican party either because they are just as bad and along with that I must say that any struggle for power leaves hidden skeletons that will be uncovered. The Iran contra trials showed us that.
The only other thing that I would really like to say is that we could point and counterpoint this thing forever but its senseless. There is no way that this forum is going to change any opinions here without clearcut answers to the problems. I am curious to know what should be done as opposed to what is being done. Why shouldn't the United States have a say in the world's oil reserves? I'm inclined to believe that because of the power that goes along with that oil that the U.S. would be in a very bad position if we ever did let our grasp on it go.
I would also like to agree with the 9/11 widow. Heads should have rolled right here over that and they didn't. Another example of politics controlling life. Its a never ending thing and he who dies with the most toys wins. I'm not saying its right or wrong - its just the way it is.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 08, 2003 05:07 pm

i'm really impressed by all the stuff that you guys are saying. there's a lot of clear thinking going on, and this discussion is both civil and dynamic.

"I don't consider the terrorists lucky at all, airports have always been lax and our borders have always been far too open. They simply exploited a terrible security system, which is sad."

you must not have read the article. the security was perfectly fine. it goes far beyond airport and border security. it has a lot to do with NORAD, visas, and the like. it's amazing how the hijackers batted a thousand on getting in with stuff that would normally be easily detected. box cutters would have registered. no doubt that the GUN that made it onboard would have registered. almost 20 hijackers get through security even though they've all got weapons that would have rang up. then our air defenses which normally are amazing totally fall apart at the perfect time? it screams inside job.

saddam and all the dictators out there should definitely not be in power, but no one has the right to do that except for the people of the particular country. believing that we can impose democracy upon a turbulent corner of the planet at gunpoint is a pipe dream. it's called imperialism.

we're trying to turn the rest of the world into little compliant versions of america, which is what the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) is all about. it keeps in step with our tradition of exploiting third world countries (sweatshops, strategic resources) in order to pretend that we're still prosperous. it's the sign of a dying empire and a culture in decline. it's no mystery that our economy is in the pits, and will not recover without serious fundamental change. it's simply history repeating itself.

having the whole planet in complete disbelief of our actions is not because they don't understand us and they don't understand our need for "national security". international law exists for a reason. the justification for breaching international law is almost always flawed. in this case, it very much is.

as for protesters, that is an issue that's really complex, and our judgment is colored by how deeply we're emotionally entrenched in our current situation. the bottom line is, people have a right to feel how they're going to feel, and the first amendment guarantees them the right to mobilize to show that. people were pissed off at civil rights protesters back in the 50s, but now we see them as heroes. if people are going to take protesting further and break the law, then they deserve the punishment that they both expect to and will receive.

coolo - you're on the money about how the issue switched from WMDs to "humanitarianism". it really took a magnifying glass on bush & co to see the degree to which they squirmed and fibbed about all this. our papers didn't report how colin powell flat out lied to the UN, but papers all over the rest of the earth sure did.

in addition, you're right about whether or not the ends justify the means. considering that our vision of the goal here is a complete pipe dream, we must be accordingly critical of the means.

www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0314-06.htm
there's an article talking about a state department report which discusses how the middle east democracy domino theory is not credible.

db Masters - our system of checks and balances is supposed to filter this type of thing out, but history has shown that times of crises (real or manufactured) put lawmakers in a different mindset. as with most of our society today, "patriotism" is more important than clear thinking. congress failed us when they passed the unconstitutional PATRIOT and Homeland Security acts without reading them through. in addition, they violated our constitution by deferring the power to declare war to the president. not only was the power reserved for declaring war on iraq, but on anywhere in the "region" that justified the attack for our security concerns. considering that our security concerns are simply excuses now, that is a very dangerous proclamation.

i very much appreciate all your comments! keep it up!

Maniacal Genius
Contributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002


Apr 08, 2003 05:20 pm

Quote:
it screams inside job


Just out of curiosity, and I'm not looking to pick a fight, are you actually suggesting that what happened on 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government?

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Apr 08, 2003 10:51 pm

I am guessing he is suggesting that someone who could have seen the planes off course in these instances, turned their head the other way, and by the time someone did notice it was far to late. I am not sure I buy that theory at all though. The planes in question take off from a populated area, and fly over populated areas the entire route. Even if the course of the flight was altered, would anybody even notice, and if so, what was their course of action going to be? Shoot the planes down with full load of pasengers on board, over crowded metropolitan areas? I think not! What happened was a well orchestrated attack, and I agree with dB in as much as our security systems at said airports let us down, period. No mistiqual inside job, nothing of that sort, just plain simple facts that people doing a boring job soon become distracted with what they are doing. And the terrorist took full advantage of that. I have walked through the metal detectors, beeped, emptied my pockets, (one of which contained a composite material knife) and walked through again, not beep, and have my goods handed back to me, (including the knife) without even a second glance. And this was only about 3 weeks ago. So, our security that is supposed to be so great at our airport is not as great as it might seem. The terrorists simply took that same flights, found the security checker that were the most lax, and off they go with guns and knifes in hand to commit their insane crimes.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 09, 2003 03:15 am

it's difficult to tell what happened, in its entirety. there are so many places where things have gone wrong that shouldn't have gone wrong...it will take a long time before the files on 9/11 will be declassified so that we can look at it in depth.

whether or not people in our government had knowledge of the attacks beforehand or during and didn't do anything to fix the situation, our executive branch has been given a great deal of power with the reaction from it. this power is being misused to bring together pre-9/11 plans that we would never accept unless we were in our current reactionary mode. the people in power decided back in the late 90s to attack iraq. WMDs, humanitarianism, how evil saddam is...all jokes and flat excuses.

if this were the truth and this was allowed to happen, i really wouldn't be surprised. there's not that much difference between letting a few thousand lives give you unprecedented political power and trading a few hundred thousand lives for money (defense contractors) and silly dreams (PNAC, zionism). richard perle and dick cheney don't mind making a few bucks off sending our troops into hell. these people are sick on power. they have an awful lot of it.

i don't have any definitive evidence about anything. i don't believe the official story. some of the hijackers are still alive, but the list hasn't been updated. the real perpetrators used fake IDs, so even the FBI chief admits that they have no real way to find out who it was. like i said, no definitive proof. only an open mind.

Member
Since: Mar 20, 2003


Apr 09, 2003 03:27 am

...and i like heavy metal music and, oops,wrong thread...

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 09, 2003 01:09 pm

also, lax airport and border security doesn't explain the put options that were placed on 9/11-related stocks that subsequently tanked. the profit on that was somewhere around $6 million. the sheer volume of put options can only indicate that someone knew that something would decimate those particular stocks around september 11. much thanks to our government for classifying that info.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 09, 2003 01:25 pm

It's really not much different than every other catastrophy, or percieved catastophy. People by nature need to have answers, and when real answers are not available, people make stuff up and it gets repeated often enough and becomes truth.

People said that Nostradomus predicted the 9/11 attacks with the passage of the two steel birds flying into the giant twins (which is totally untrue, and anyone who has studied his writings knows it)...the picture of the guy on the roof of one of the towers with a plane in the background (totally bogus)...that civilization would crash to the ground on 1/1/2000 (the non-event of the century)...the list goes on. People find something and latch on.

I personally think a lot of this hype comes from the same source...fear and uncertainty.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 09, 2003 04:17 pm

you're right. that same fear and uncertainty that gets people making things up gets people to think that wars of aggression are ok.

the stuff that i'm talking about isn't urban legend. there are an awful lot of things going on now that normally would be full-fledged scandals (cheney and halliburton, etc.), but the media is in a state where a few hands hold the entire thing. you know, the big five. it can cost a reporter their entire livelihood to speak out on controversial issues.

our culture and our way of life are at one end of the pendulum swing, and it's time to get straight and get back on track.

a lot of the way out there conspiracy theorists totally took off when 9/11 happened. a lot of people believe some crazy stuff. that doesn't mean that there aren't questions that need answers. seriously...read that article and see what the widow is saying.
www.9-11commission.gov/he...s_kleinberg.htm

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 09, 2003 05:07 pm

Quote:
the stuff that i'm talking about isn't urban legend


Not mocking or trying to start anything, but that's what is always said about anyone's personal convictions.

The world is going to end in 2010, did you know that? It's not legend I saw an official government document that has the full story that we are an alien concieved race, and that we are essential their version of what we know as an ant farm, and in the year 2010 their experiment is over and so is the ant farm we call "Earth".

Again, not mocking or anything, so please don't take it as such, but it is true, I have seen the official government papers. Do I believe it, well, no, but the people that showed them to me sure the heck do, one of them has "2010" tattooed on his arm.

I read the article, thought provoking stuff really, but I don't believe it any more than I believe a lot of stuff I hear in relation to 9/11. But I do feel horrible for the families left behind without parents and children, regardless of who is at fault.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 09, 2003 05:08 pm

point taken. looks like we've gotten as far as we can with this. let's leave it to time to sort it out.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 09, 2003 05:11 pm

Ya, thats kinda what I think too...we won't know the real truth until long after 2010 :-)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 10, 2003 10:28 am

Hey Minkus, in all the debating and discussion, I forgot to offer you a hearty "welcome" to HRC.

So, "welcome to the community"! We are always glad to have new folks joining in the fun.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 10, 2003 11:33 am

thanks! you guys are incredibly helpful and have dispelled a lot of recording ignorance for me so far. i look forward to learning more from you!

about my remark about feeling like i'm in nazi germany while reading certain newspapers, here's an article from today about a producer of a Hitler documentary who got fired for feeling the same:
tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?30964

"It basically boils down to an entire nation gripped by fear, who ultimately chose to give up their civil rights and plunged the whole nation into war," Gernon said in the interview. "I can't think of a better time to examine this history than now."

let's all work together to keep a clear head!

Contributor
Since: Sep 09, 2002


Apr 10, 2003 09:13 pm

i heard it was 2012 :O)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 11, 2003 05:18 am

Well, then you didn't see the REAL official documents. HA

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 11, 2003 01:10 pm

Very cool stuff! Sings "The ants go marching one by one..... hurah! hurah!"

Which scenerio is best? and by what criteria?

Sudam continues killing to maintain his order? Attrition estimate please.

US coloratoral damage? Attrition estimate please.

Self inflicted damage per riotus activity after liberation on the part of those liberated? Attrition estimate please.

Hiroshema anyone?

Let's sell a war! Viet Nam. Send unarmed "peace keepers" and show their demise on national media. That should sell the public.

If I planted the ant farm, I would seriously consider putting it out of it's missery!

Now that we have a world economy, can it survive if we are buisy killing each other because of our "tribe" of origin? Interesting contrast. The birthplace of civiliation. Maybe our ancestors should not have damned the rivers up! Oh darn, back to those tree huggers.

It's the air, that's it! It is a drug! Stop breathing everyone, it's our only salvation!

Are the Iraquies smiling and dancing; A; because they are liberated? B; because that is what you do to live another day regardless of occupation? C; because the air is bad? D; because it is fun to smash stuff?

Is Sudam A; DOA? B; Doing extensive studies of tunnels? C; Partying with Bin Laden on a sand dune? D; plucking flower peddals, "they love me, they love me not".

Did anyone notice that the thousands of soldiers walking back to Bagdad from Northern Iraq did not have a hair out of place? Did anyone notice the sheep hearder that looked like something out of allie babba and the seven thieves!

How about the numb nuts correspondant who had to be prompted to interview the soldiers and then made up his own version of what they had said?

Can people really be this insane regardless of race, orgin, creed, bla bla bla.

Yes

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Apr 11, 2003 05:41 pm

Ill get bac to ya on that Walt.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 12, 2003 12:00 am

Take your time. I can't really perceive that the answers will help much. Maybe we could send some some of our legislators over there. Now there is a group of folks that can represent the people. Examples: our schools, our legal system, etc. Oh, no, I forgot. They are all going to be building puters that only play government approved music. Now that is important! And just what the people asked for....right? Maybe they could all stand on the steps of the palace and sing songs! Maybe teach the Iraquies how to spend billions on issues like a stray Lewinski in the oral office. I have always said lead by example! Thank god we sent our millitary! They are acting like humans over there. Not politicians!

Ignorance Is Strength
Member
Since: Nov 10, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 03:12 pm

As I have stated in another thread, the war in Afg/Iraq is only the beginning. If you do not believe that Bush is owned by corporate interests and that these intrests are now above the common good of the people then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you, cheap. We must learn from history, or we are doomed to repeat it.

"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever before, even in the midst of war.
(Abraham Lincoln)

"These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America," Roosevelt thundered in a 1936 speech. "What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for."
(F.D.R.)

Those of us who still believe in republican democracy would have "We, The People" make the decisions through representatives we've elected without the feudal influence of corporate money. We realize that "big government" is, indeed, a menace when it's no longer responsive to its own people, as happened in Germany, Italy and Russia in the last century - and is happening today in America under G.W.Bush and his neoconservatives.

Research:
www.Project for the New American Century.org
The new American Empire, you make up your own mind.

www.blackboxvoting.com
How our basic right to vote is being eliminated

www.thomhartmann.com
For usefull info on the disasterous direction this country is headed.

fas-cism (fsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism. [Ital. fascio, group.] -fas'cist n. -fas-cis'tic (fa-shis'tik) adj.
-- The American Heritage Dictionary

Thanks for the opportunity to express my opinion.

May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
(Dwight D. Eisenhower)

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 23, 2003 05:58 pm

hey man...you might have missed other threads, but those of us who wish to discuss important political and social issues are to do so somewhere else, because it creates conflict with those on this forum who don't wish to discuss such topics. i personally agree with you 100%, but experience has taught me that some people here don't want to discuss politics that disagree with our leadership.

i must say though that it is interesting how so many people who identify with being "conservative" are quite liberal about changing the way our country has been run for years by giving power and allegiance to individual men rather than to the ideals that made us a superpower. it leads me to conclude that identifying with being conservative really is identifying with fear. however, that doesn't lend credence to conservatives who disagree with what's going on but are afraid to display such viewpoints because of this country-wide atmosphere of inane, mindless nationalism. so my conclusion is: insufficient data.

barabbas! barabbas!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 07:03 pm

You didn't listen to a damn thing I said last time we went through this did you? Nobody said anything about disagreeing with leadership is wrong, questionign authority is what can make a better government for the people, by the people. What was wrong is calling everybody who disagreed with you what amounted to "the ignorant, uneducated masses"...That is what I personally found totally offensive and insulting.

I know plenty of people with years of college and grad school that are still the most ignorant, un productive members of society I have ever had the displeasure of meeting.

Obviously not all people in any circle of people can be llabelled any one way, including your mass labelling of people that are not in some sort of higher education as your posts very clearly stated your position as being.

THAT is what is unwelcomed at this forum and always will be.

Until you listen to what is said, please, do not speak for the community or what is welcomed and what isn't.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 23, 2003 07:18 pm

ok.

a.k.a. Porp & Mr. Muffins
Member
Since: Oct 09, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 07:21 pm

Ugh

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 23, 2003 07:46 pm

wait a sec...

"...including your mass labelling of people that are not in some sort of higher education as your posts very clearly stated your position as being."

it might have been in the post that you deleted, but i clarified that as being totally untrue. i'm a FIRST SEMESTER student. that's hardly a position in which to be elitist!

anyway, the masses are ignorant and uneducated. that's what makes us the masses. that's what makes all this conjecture that is up for debate. i was pissed at all the folks who want to get in peoples' faces talking about supporting our fearless leader and our troops, but don't want to hear that the issues are more complex than knee-jerk nationalist reactionism. same with people who want to tell you about bush wanting to get saddam back for attacking his daddy, and screaming at people who are pro-war.

sorry to pop the balloon (try to, rather), but i'm here to get info and share experiences, and perhaps engage in some informative debate about whatever topic i have any knowledge. i apologize if i offend people. if you're going to get on my case based upon your assumptions of where i'm coming from, then feel free. however, i will respond in my own defense.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 08:33 pm

Uneducated does equal ignorant, nor is the reverse true. They CAN go hand in hand, but don't have to.

You did clarify yourself in later posts, which is why the whole issue subsided, until YOU brought it up again here by stating what is and isn't allowed at HRC, first being incorrect in your statement and second in having no position to speak for HRC.

I am not "on your case", I am simply correcting your erroneous comment to Crash about what he can and can not talk about. It's not what one talks about or says, it's how it is approached and the attitude involved.

You get sick of people that support the troops for the sole reason of "being a patriot", actually, I find that stupid too, I am tired of all the American flags on people cars and stickers on bumpers of people that before 9/11 had no patriotic bone in their bodies. But that said, I am just as tired of people that protest and riot for the sole reason of protesting and rioting. There are mindless drones on both sides of the fence of any issue, just as there are honest people that hold honest beliefs with solid reasons for their beliefs on both sides...the mindless drones on either side of an issue are not worth the time to talk to about it, but the just because ones beliefs don't argee with yours or mine does not automatically lump them in a mindless drone category, and whether they agree or not, are deserving of the respect that a free country affords them if they are honest and sincere in their convictions...even if you or I view them as wrong.

Ignorance Is Strength
Member
Since: Nov 10, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 09:14 pm

geez i feel bad now. I didnt want to get things fired up I just wanted to offer up a little of what you dont hear much of these days.
Music has always been part of politics. What better way to make a statement than with a song. You have to be political just to play in a band and deal with the other musicians. I think musicians should debate their political views but at the same time keep it civil. No name calling, no personal attacks, not too much mud slinging and show respect. Hey, I've known musicians who'd punch yer lights out as soon as look at ya.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 09:49 pm

Quote:
You have to be political just to play in a band and deal with the other musicians.


Now there is an honest bit of truth that most all of us can relate with.

I totally agree with you, and you didn't get anyone worked up, it's remnants of an old disagreement that needed airing I guess...

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 23, 2003 10:21 pm

More than one person is politics, that's just nature.

M&M.... You are sharper than your opening statement. Good grief.

Ya, I agree that most folks are not thoughtfull. They are shallow and don't demonstrate much independant thinking. Hippies where a good example of that. I think there where three of them, Daryl, Daryl, and Daryl. The whole rest of the world saw them getting attention for wearing bell bottoms long hair and sporting a flower. In less than a decade it was fashion and nothing more. I definately love it. I have a number of acuaintences who are bikers as I own a motorcycle. There they are waving the American flag on their mostly Japanees made Harley, while peddling drugs, running extortion scams, running blind pigs, evading taxes, on add infimum. And yet it is vogue to dress in black, have a "bad boy" image etc. for all of the weekend lowyers, doctors, execs, ect. Now there is some fiber to build a country on! More like a laxitive per my perception. This is nothing new. The heard keeps rambling aimlessly through the desert kicking up a lot of dust. I firmly believe that 90% of the human race is attention deficite. They'll do anything for attention! Test it out sometime. I put a big rock in my yard in one neighborhood. Three months later most every house had a rock. Then I tried a piece of driftwood. Same results! I think people started catching on when I hung a large bag rooten fruit from the tree in the front yard. People are not necessarly ignorant or of low intelligence levels. They do however have a tendency not to think much!

Ignorance Is Strength
Member
Since: Nov 10, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 01:16 am

Walt, LoL
Herds of lawyers on Harleys on Sunday morning! I've seen them! Pullin out of Village Inn Restaurant. Hahahahahaah. Words of wisdom Walt, words of wisdom.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 11:42 am

I'm glad you got a kick out of that Crash. I have decided to laugh about it as well. I think that is the best way preceive the mentality of the herd. It makes sense to wear protective clothing eg boots, leather, etc. And to wear dress leather is crazy as it will be pasted with bugs, rocks, road oil, bird leavings, etc. But as a lawyer or doctor why would you want to proport the people you prosacute, or the people that send business to your hospital? Haloween can be fun dressing up like your fantasy demon, but why would you want to run around every Sunday morning looking like what is the American version of a terrorist? Tell me those folks are wired right? Just another example of something as simple as a sport which caught the attention of the masses and is now being distorted by the band wagon effect. They are great fun to run into on the road too. "I got a Harley" nan e nan e nan a. One upmanship, condesending attitude etc. Now there a prime example of well developed character. What a way to waste your life, acting a fool. Oh well; what it is, it is. Might as well laugh I think. However, I will not be joining the herd.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 24, 2003 11:55 am

i always thought that the american version of the terrorist was the fanatical christian abortion clinic bomber. am i wrong?

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 11:59 am

I agree, they "support life" by killing...doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 12:36 pm

We americans seem to have quite a few versions lately. Mobsters are revered for their lavish parties etc. Bikers are "cool dudes". Anti abortionists are "idealists". Corporate executives are "successfull". Politicians are....politicians. They all kill. Obviously corporate greed is the most sophisticated methodology. You have to trace back many layers before you get to the person that can no longer get proper health care because of corporate greed, but the dynamics are the same.

Agreed, however, the anti abortionist is one of the most overt, obvious examples.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 12:42 pm

I disagree with the charcterization of mobsters. But to preface that I need to draw a line between "mobsters" and "gangs". True, old school mobsters and even modern organized crime outfits generally only kill people within their circle, not random people on the street. And most know full well going into it that that is the way of life. Not saying it is right, but it is less terroristic than today street gangs that would rather make it easy and take out a whole city block to get the one person they are looking for. While these gangs (or upscale "cartels") are very lucrative and sophisticed, they do indeed lack the "honor among theives" mentality that made the Mafia and other organized crime outfits appear more diplomatic and honorable.

John Gotti can be single handedly held accountable for bringing the Mafia down to the level of the common street gang.

That said, I am not condoning either...

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 01:22 pm

I really don't know, obviously, if we are moving into symantics, or if there is a truely a phylosophical divide here. I submit that although sophicated and obviously successfull, orgnized crime exists per the use of terrorist tactics. True, they can not be as sloppy as street gangs or regimes in the middle east. Their control is non the less fear based. I also do not share the perception that they exist in a vacume comprised of only like members. Their activities destroy countless lives. Now I suppose that it could be argued that the participation is willing and therefore those who die from the drugs, etc. are weak and therefore mobsters aid natural selection.

Regardless, my participation in this thread has come to the point of being acedemic. I am also finding myself being clouded by the desire to be "right" which is a poor motivation.

Interesting thread. Provides insite into the thought process of folks. Now that is scarry!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 01:34 pm

Unless the gangster held the dude down and forced him to take the drugs, I really feel little anger towards the gangster. I have been very heavily involved in the whole "drug scene" in my youth...more than I care to admit to...but still, to this day, I really don't blame the dealers for the deaths of fully capable adults making the silly decisions to take them...now if the death, or the drug user is a child...well, it's a whole different story. I think it is wrong to blame the dealer for the poor choice of another.

I think the basic problem with American culture currently is the willingness for people to accept other people laying the blame for their bad choices on someone else...nobody has to accept responsibility for their actions anymore, and until we do, this culture is going to continue the downhill slide it has been on for the past few years...

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 24, 2003 01:49 pm

mobsters are terrorists...that includes the whole "protection money" thing that they did and still do to shopkeepers and other people.

i seriously think that drug dealers are something that shouldn't exist. a congressman whose name i forgot said something about how we wouldn't be having this drug-related crime if the drugs themselves were decriminalized, effectively eliminating the black market. as far as i can see, it relates to whether you think drugs are a social or a criminal problem. considering that people will always be doing drugs no matter what, it doesn't make sense to turn someone who is expanding their mind and/or making questionable drug decisions into a criminal. it would save an awful lot of taxes, not to mention the taxes that we'd get from taxing the drugs that don't need to be controlled as strictly. thoughts?

with the corporate thing, you can also argue that the lives of the sweatshop people in thailand or wherever have been ruined by the desire to increase the bottom line.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 01:54 pm

Quote:
mobsters are terrorists...that includes the whole "protection money" thing that they did and still do to shopkeepers and other people.


Those involved in extortion (which not all are) yes, you are right about that.

Drugs can be a problem, but it is social, not criminal, I do think it would be best to legalize the natural ones. I agree it would bring in millions in taxes that could be used to fight the serious, chemical, man-made drugs...and also stopping the continuing "don't do drugs" campaigns, which are pointless, everyone knows if you tell a kid not to do something often enough it's going to make them do it that much more...

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 01:59 pm

I will definately validate the perception of people not accepting personal responsibility for their actions. I too have been down the roads you speak of. I also accept responsiblity for having traveled those roads by finding new roads. Part of those new roads however, is a dedication not to obsolve those opurtunists who prey on nievity and ignroance. Ever get pot that was laced with PCP because it brought a better street value? But hey it's a feature!

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003


Apr 24, 2003 02:18 pm

dB...i was watching MTV, and a commercial came on that appeared to be a pregnancy test commercial, but took a twist when the caption "they're soon to be the youngest grandparents on the block" came up, and the mom-figure pulled away to reveal the teenage daughter sitting on the toilet. then it talked about how marijuana hinders your judgment. that and the terrorist-marijuana connection are prime examples of the bizarre cause-effect relationships that are established by "the anti-drug" campaign. you can check out more propaganda at theantidrug.com

my mom came to me concerned that the THC levels in pot were getting so high, therefore making it "dangerous". they neglect to tell you that you can't overdose on pot unless you smoke something like 10,000 lbs of it. one of the characteristics of propaganda is that it gives you enough information to be afraid, but doesn't give you enough of the story to make a realistic conclusion. i'd have to agree with you that these ad campaigns don't work, and that they're not worth our taxes.

i was talking to my girlfriend, who has been doing a lot of research on the effects of abstinence-only education. the pregnancy and STD rates of those kids went directly up, and didn't level out in the long-term. the argument made was that kids are going to do what they're going to do no matter what, and that withholding relevant information only harms their lives. that made sense to me, and triggered a connection to the whole "drug abuse education" phenomenon. kids engage in riskier drug behavior because they don't know what is specifically dangerous and what isn't. they just know that "marijuana's bad, m'kay?"

but then again, objective education and legalization (leading to the elimination of the black market) "sends the wrong message".

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 24, 2003 02:26 pm

Yes, I saw those commercials as well, and I thought the gandparent one was actually very good. But most I find quite stupid..."This is your brain on drugs"...give me a break...

You are right, kids are gonna do what they want regardless.

The funniest thing about your mom's statement is that pot is actually way lamer and less potent than it was back many years, I have never understood where these facts come from...the most widely available is the least effective...

Immediatly after legalization (which WILL happen eventually) there will be problems, but after the phenomonon is over, so will the problems...it will just be another buzz to buy at the liquor store.

Ignorance Is Strength
Member
Since: Nov 10, 2002


Apr 25, 2003 05:02 pm

ahhh drugs and alcohol, the cause of and the answer to all of life's problems.
(Homer Simpson)

Related Forum Topics:



If you would like to participate in the forum discussions, feel free to register for your free membership.