Quality of a Burned CD

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Czar of Cheese
Member Since: Jun 09, 2004

Yesterday my daughter participated in her very first gymnastics competition. Half way through her floor routine, her music konked out. The CD just stopped playing. It was a CD that I had made in iTunes, burning an mp3 file. This happened to only about five or six of the 80-plus gymnasts that competed.

QUESTION: Does the speed at which I burn a CD affect the reliability of the disc, or just the audio quality? In other words, if I burn the CD at 1x will it be less likely to fail mid-routine? Sound quality itself isn't really an issue due to the crummy stereo system that the music is played on.

Are there other steps I could take to make a burned CD more reliable?

Thanks!

Jim

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I tune down down...
Member
Since: Jun 11, 2007


Dec 14, 2008 01:58 pm

From what I understand, it is affected. It seals the info better if it's slower, I guess. I know from experience that the slower I burn the better it turns out. Sound and reliability. It also depends on the burner and the quality of the disc.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Dec 14, 2008 02:17 pm

At the unimaginable speeds the drive has to work at to create those microscopic pits, it's a wonder the damn thing works at all.

I always use the slowest burn rate available.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 14, 2008 02:28 pm

Yeah, for audio and video I always burn slow as well, if it's just data or photos or something I kick it up.

Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003


Dec 14, 2008 02:34 pm

Yep the reliability is affected by the speed of the burn, it's always best to burn at slower speeds on important stuff. It's my understanding that most CD replication companys won't even accept a master that is burned at anything other than 1X. I think for your purposses you'd be alright at 2X-4X or even faster but definitley better to slow it down.

I saw on discovery channel a CD spins at nearly 30,000RPM so it's easy to see how errors could pop up.

Dan

we prefer "percussionist"
Member
Since: Jul 21, 2004


Dec 14, 2008 02:37 pm

I just read an article, either in Sound on Sound or Recording (Borders is great - free mags!) talking about that. It said that slower burns are more reliable, but most consumer burners and disks are built assuming you're going for speed, so they bottom out if you go too slow. I know I've never gotten a good burn below 8x. They said you can get disks specifically made to burn at 1x and you get really good quality (though I'm sure they're more expensive!).

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Dec 14, 2008 05:35 pm

Also, some CD players just don't agree with CD-R discs. I have a Sony Discman that just refuses to play anything that's been burned onto disc. It'll play any commercial disc, but I'll be damned if I can play more than 1/2 a song from a burned CD-R before it starts skipping or stops playing altogether.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Dec 14, 2008 07:07 pm

I found that the cheaper disc's simply are not reliable at all. I went back to using a bit more expensive disc. I bought the boyz 500 of some blanks that were like 49 per 100 and they do not work for crap, even burned at 1x. Those now are the disc's we use to do strictly data on or maybe an mp3 mix for their friends. We don't use them at all for music that we need to play in the car or want to trust to play in everything.

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Dec 15, 2008 12:00 am

The problem was that you were playing a disc that is NOT compliant on a deck that almost undoubtedly is looking for compliant discs. Most professional CD decks - performing arts centers, radio stations - anywhere they use "industrial quality" decks, are looking for the TOC in a certain portion of the written data. If the TOC isn't where it's supposed to be and written the way it's supposed to be written, there's no way to tell what will happen once it's in the tray.

I've seen it over and over and over and over again, dozens and dozens of times in the exact same situation. Dance companies, soloists, gymnasts, lines of Irish step-dancers, name it.

If you want a disc to function, it'd better be a compliant disc. iTunes WILL NOT create a disc to red-book specifications.

More here if you're bored: www.massivemastering.com/html/redbook_cd_s.html

But more or less, just a longer rant than this one.

Concerning speed - Many studies (my own included) find a "sweet spot" on most drives at around 20-25% of the drive's rated speed. For the record, *too slow* caused higher block-error rates than too fast in almost every experiment.

1 & 2x were typical 15 years ago, when a drive's top speed was 1 to 4x. The "slower side" of 20-25% is fine, but too slow (there are only a small number of incredibly expensive drives that will write at 1-2x anymore). On a run-of-the-mill 48-52x drive, you'll want to burn at 8, 12, even 16x is perfectly fine. But it *MUST* be written to specs - or it's a gamble on a good day if it'll play.

I've known of more than a few bands that actually had discs they put together on iTunes or WMP replicated - And then had to take them all back because they wanted to save a few bucks on a program that would write to spec (or to send it to someone who might know of such things).

In any case, you can expect the same every time - or not - sometimes they'll play just fine. Other times, they won't play at all. Yet others, they'll play a bit and then just jump to the middle of track 5 without warning. It's more common in cases like your than you could imagine.

Quote:
This happened to only about five or six of the 80-plus gymnasts that competed.


That failure rate is far too high - But more and more typical as more and more people are burning discs at home on software not up to the task - which is a mind-blower, IMO... Writing a compliant disc can be simple and automated and I find it unbelievable that such a simple task is impossible on the most common software.

Media-wise -- Almost any Japanese disc. Maxell Sony, Verbatim, TDK, Taiyo Yuden (the favorite of nearly every mastering facility on the planet), any are fine.

Chinese discs on the other hand... Leave 'em alone, they'll leave you alone.

What programs? I have no idea what consumer programs will write to red-book specifications. I know there are a few. I *think* certain versions of Nero will. I know iTunes won't. I know WMP won't. I know so many that won't... But if you aren't 100% certain that the software you're using is writing to spec, you're better off just not using it if it really counts.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Dec 15, 2008 12:14 am

I also have seen this problem that MM was referring to as well.

The only thing that I noticed on top of that, was (believe it or not) the brand of CD player.

There are a few, such as Marantz, and Denon, that have some strange auto start, and stop feature. If there is a small section with the audio that is below a predetermined threshold. The machine stops, and cue's the next track.

At the shop I work in, we pulled all Marantz CD players from our racks. We actually got tired of refunding clients because of the CD player.

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Dec 15, 2008 12:21 am

No doubt there also - Marantz and Denon are both very picky (they're also found in just about every single performance facility in the country). The newer (less than 2 years old) Tascam decks seem to be a little more manageable (probably due to radio station contracts), as are the pro Sony decks.

Still, a crap-shoot with non-compliant discs and almost never an issue with discs that are written to spec. I used to test reference masters on a 1985 Sony *DIGITAL* (ha!) CD deck.

Oh yes - It said *DIGITAL* on it in big gold letters...

Never once had an issue with a compliant CD-R.

Never played a TAO disc. Not one.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Dec 15, 2008 12:11 pm

If it happened to five or six people, it is also possible that the CD-Player is just starting to crap out or is dirty. Just a thought.

That being said, burned CD's are usually the first to go when a player starts having problems.

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Dec 15, 2008 12:42 pm

My money is still on the discs. I still do a fair amount of FOH work in various performing arts facilities - It happens all the time.

Whenever it's a beauty pageant or a dance recital or what not, I bring my laptop with me just for the purpose of extraction and re-authoring (or just playing from the laptop).

Czar of Cheese
Member
Since: Jun 09, 2004


Dec 15, 2008 04:05 pm

Thanks, that's a lot to digest. I think somewhere in there is the answer I'm looking for.

One other thing I didn't realize...all fourteen gymnasts on the team had their music on the same CD, burned by the coach. My daughter's is the only one on that CD that failed.

Just a fluke?

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Dec 15, 2008 04:23 pm

I don't see where a Digital Multimeter has to do with anything? =P

But, yeah. Chalk it up to that.

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Dec 15, 2008 10:48 pm

Quote:
Just a fluke?

Always a fluke.

If the disc isn't compliant, it might play this time and not that time. I might read up to a certain point and then just quit. It might go through the whole track "skipping" the whole time.

Sometimes the fluke is when it actually plays.

And even perfectly compliant burns can be riddled with block errors that go beyond what CIRC in a CD player can correct on the fly -- Less common, but not exactly unusual. If the discs aren't checked for such anomalies (even some mastering facilities fail to insure BLER is within spec), there are no guarantees.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Dec 16, 2008 03:36 pm

I've noticed that all of the inexpensive "off-name" portable CD players I've tried have no problems at all with my CD-Rs. Neither do any of my six home component units except for one Sony DVD deck. I've chalked that one up to Sony's longtime stance against piracy.

I always use Maxell blanks.

Perhaps if machines were a little more tolerant of deviations from the Red Book Standard? If a cheap no-name unit outperforms an expensive brand in reliability, something's wrong here.

Tim the Enchanter
Member
Since: Feb 17, 2008


Dec 16, 2008 07:17 pm

I have had multiple problems with Sony consumer level CD/DVD players. I had a playstation 2 that quit reading discs after awhile. I have a friend that had a playstation 3 that quit reading discs after 5 months so he had to take it back and exchange it for another one. I have owned 2 Sony DVD players that got to where they would play a movie halfway through and then it would start skipping all over the place. I think this may be from some overheating issue. I've also had friends that have had problems with their Sony car CD players. I'm not so sure Sony makes the best disc readers at the consumer level (at least not in my experiences).

I too have found that most Sonys don't seem to read CD-Rs. I'd agree with you that it's probably because their stance against piracy.

I used to use the cheapest blanks I could find but had many problems with them not burning properly. I switched to Memorex and had less problems (although I've still had a few).




Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Dec 16, 2008 07:35 pm

My Sony deck won't even try to play them. It simply reads NO DISC.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Dec 16, 2008 07:40 pm

I think usually the problem starts due to excessive heat... but the quality of the diskand burn can relate to how well the transport can reacquire it's location... I have a Sony DVD player that was absolutely awful until I put the system in the basement... no problems since.

The worse cases I've dealt with had some sort of silicon gel on the gears in the head transport which gummed up... another case the drive belts just 'melted' with age.

also ...scratches parallel with the edge can really get you too.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Dec 16, 2008 07:53 pm

If so, Sony could have saved users a lot of trouble by attaching a simple label to the outside of the box.

Refrigerate after opening

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