analog on a CD?
Home > Home Recording Forum > Computers & Software > analog on a CD?
Posted on Feb 21, 2003 12:23 pm
FunkDadyP
No Commercial Appeal.
Member Since: Jan 09, 2003
I'm looking for a sound card and recording software. My friend told me that going from an analog mixer to my digital PC is not going to sound too great, but it can be done without losing a ton of quality. Then he said i'll just need to burn my recordings onto a CD using analog instead of digital. Is this possible? I thought CDs were digital discs.
And what type of quality loss am I looking at by going from analog to digital without buying a midi converter. I know I can buy a midi converter (I think) to change analog to digital, but is it worth dropping a few hundred dollars to get a small amount of quality.
This hardware stuff is kind of confusing for me.
Thanks
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Feb 21, 2003 12:36 pm FYI, stop taking advise from that friend, he has no idea what he is talking about.
1- Almost everyone here runs an analog mixer into a sound card, it's how MANY, MANY studios operate.
2- You burn the CD from your PC...I have never heard of an "analog CD burn" CD's are digital medium that need to have digital data put on them.
3- No such thing as a Midi analog to digital convertor. MIDI data is NEVER analog until it comes out of a sound module or like device. You are probably thinking about a A/D convertor for audio signals, which is exactly what a sound card is.
Feb 21, 2003 12:33 pm FunkDaddy,
Using an analog mixer going into a high-end sound card into a computer is the way almost everyone records to their computer. The sound cards have Analog-to-Digital converters in them to (you guessed it) convert the analog signal to digital. Generally speaking, the higher quality the sound card, the higher quality the conversion. The "Recommended Gear" thread at the top of the forums has a nice list of sound cards commonly used by members of this community. Find one that serves your needs as far as the number of inputs and outputs and you should be happy with any of them.
As for burning a CD. I'm not sure what your friend is talking about. CDs are digital, period. He might be referring to the idea of adding some "analog-like" coloring to your digital recording. This can be done with plug-ins (Magneto is a popular one) in the digital domain and works pretty well to add that little extra warmth that analog tape has.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 12:40 pm I thought that friend was talking out his a$$ anyway. So the sound card is the converter? Is that going to deteriorate my sound and recording quality? What is the best way to get sound from my mixer to the sound card? Should i use an RCA to 1/8 inch cable, an XLR to 1/4 inch, or will that just depend on the sound card i'm looking at? Do Sound Cards all have the same inputs? My friend, knowledgable or not, says most sound cards have 1/8 inch inputs.
Feb 21, 2003 12:49 pm Most sound cards for gamers have 1/8 inch, most recording soundcards from people like M-Audio, Echo and companies like that are almost alwasy 1/4".
If you friend is recording with an 1/8 inch jack sound card, that would explain why he is getting a bad conversion. 1/8" jacks are not the best.
1/4" balanced (3 conductor 1/4"'s) or XLR are the best, but 1/4" unbalanced (the typical two conductor cords") are very commonly used, I have no probs with them.
Feb 21, 2003 12:50 pm Your firend is talking about standard consumer sound cards like the ones that come in every computer. What you will need is a more specialized sound card that will allow you input multiple tracks simulatneously. They vary greatly in the number and type of inputs/outputs they have and many of them also have an external "breakout box" that will have all of the 1/4 inch, XLR or whatever inputs/outputs it boasts. A good start would be to look at the Delta 44 from M-Audio. I have never used one personally, but I have heard nothing but good things from lots of people abou his card. And it's priced very nicely. Check it out here...
service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 12:53 pm i guess my main concern before buying a sound card is, "is any sound card i buy going to be compatible with my PC." i just don't want to be stuck with something that doesn't fit my computer.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 12:59 pm i don't think i can record multiple tracks simultaneously. all i have is one main out on my mixer. this will just give me one master track won't it?
Feb 21, 2003 01:29 pm There are always risks of compatibility problems with hardware, it happens. I personally have found M-Audio to have the fewest probs of the common pro-audio brands. But as a rule compatiblity probs are not the norm.
As far as your mixer goes, there are many way out of a mixer besides the main outs, there are aux sends, sometimes sub out, direct outs, etc. But, if your mixer only has main outs you can get two tracks by panning hard left and hard right to split up the instruments, and then panning them back to center on the PC for cuntinued mixdown. Clever use of panning can gain you advatages every now and then.
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Feb 21, 2003 01:33 pm wow thats rough. not even stereo
Feb 21, 2003 01:30 pm 1) Compatibility: Before you buy a sound card, check the manufacturer's website for compatibility information. You definitely want to make sure that you're not going to run into any issues there. You're wise to be concerned about this.
2) Multiple Tracks Simulaneously: You're mixer may only have a single stereo out, but you can record 2 mono tracks at once simply by panning one track hard left and the other hard right. I just looked at the specs for your mixer and you have 4 bus outputs. Those will allow you to send 4 tracks to the sound card at once. Plus, if you want, you can sub-mix several channels to each bus. For example, you might use 6 or 8 mics on a drum kit and then group them down to 4 tracks.
Looking at your profile, I think you have a very nice setup that would be well complimented and vastly expanded by a good sound card and recording software.
Feb 21, 2003 01:38 pm Yes, I guess I just assumed it's stereo...maybe not...that would be a bummer.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 01:38 pm i have 4 sub outs on my mixer, so that means i'll be able to select, say, channels 1 through 8 (drum mics) and put them in sub out 1, and, say, channels 9 and 10 and put them in sub out 2 and so on. And each sub out will be represented by one recorded track on my PC software? if this is right, just say yes and i'll be happy.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 01:42 pm oh you just answered that
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 01:47 pm so am i going to have to purchase 4 of the same cable to run from my 4 sub outs to the sound card if i want to record all four outs at once?
Feb 21, 2003 01:48 pm yup
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 01:48 pm And what's the big deal about not being stereo. I really don't see an advantage in being stereo over mono except if we wanted to do some trippy pink floyd stuff where you hear a sound travel from the left to right. I have a bunch of VU demos that are mono, and i think they sound cool. maybe i just like the rawness of it.
Feb 21, 2003 01:50 pm argh, mono makes me claustrophiboc. (sp?) stereo does more than just do pink floydy stuff going back and forth, you place each instrument in the sound stage to engulf the listen in the music, so a drum roll actually sound like it is going subtly from side to side, the bass slightly to the left, the guitar slightly to the right, the vocalist right in front...it adds to the spacial qualities of the sound.
Surround sound adds even more to it by being able to pan all the way around the listener...which is totally cool!
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 21, 2003 01:55 pm But using the Sub-outs, i'll be able to record in stereo, right?
Am I really just a couple of steps away (sound card, software, cables) from being able to record music? I'm really excited about it and I appreciate your help greatly. As you can see, my friend probably would have had me buy an extra $500 worth of equipment. Thank God for the HRC!
Ben
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Feb 21, 2003 02:48 pm Yup, that's where you are! And when you mix, you can do as much stereo as you like! I am sorry I missed the first part of this thread. That whole analog / digital thing is such a stumbling point. With midi, loops, and samples, you are assembling analog sounds that have been pre-digitized. Therefore there is no need to convert them to digital samples. When recording an instrument playing or something with a microphone, all of those signals are analog. And yes at some point in the chain you need to convert the analog signals to digital. There is no real benifit in converting them before the mixer rather than after. In fact the way a mixer is used in recording it prepares the analog signal for conversion. So you are doing great! It really is not that different from an old tape recording. The tape recorder would convert the analog signal to a magnetic impulse and the tape would record it. Now the digital converter converts the analog signal to a digital sample and the disk records it.
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 24, 2003 11:46 am okay, i found the system requirements i need for the delta 44 sound card, but i don't know what "UDMA EIDE or ATA 33/66 HDD" means. It says i need it, but i don't know how i find that on my computer. Any help?
FunkDadyPNo Commercial Appeal.Member
Since: Jan 09, 2003
Feb 24, 2003 01:28 pm I have windows XP, so i'm not too sure how to find system information quite yet.
Feb 25, 2003 01:33 am thats your harddrive. looks like any harddrive will do. 'cept maybe SCSI, cuz i'm still fuzzy on SCSI.
i think ATA 33/66 is the old ones so i imagine any modern harddrive will work.
someone correct me if i'm wrong
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Feb 25, 2003 05:37 am Nah, you're right J.
Funk - you're bound to have at least an ATA 33 Hard Disk - unless you are running a 2 gig one from 1996.
jues.
Feb 25, 2003 05:50 am SCSI isn't rated with the ATA thing, it's got different classifications. If you are running Windows I sincerely hope you are on at least an ATA 66 drive.
You can see in the post (black and white screen you se when some PC's start up and find all their hardware) many BIOS versions list the "mode" that their drives support mode 1, 2, 3 or 4 for being ATA 100 I think. I would guess 5 exists now for ATA 133 but I might be wrong. One can also tell by looking at the cable, ATA 66 and higher need to use a much finer appearing IDE cable connecting it to the mother board.
Feb 25, 2003 06:19 am hey Dan, I have an Ultra DMA controller card for my two existing harddrives... do you think this might be why my third harddrive doens't work? Should I try and put in on my regular IDE's on the MoBo?
Feb 25, 2003 06:37 am it could be, it depends how you set up that add in controller in BIOS, either the mainboards BIOS or the system BIOS. sometimes, by default new controller cards will disable the mainboard IDE ports, but it does give the option of enabling them...so, to give the generic, catch all answer:
"It depends" ;-)
Feb 25, 2003 07:50 am i didn't install it. it was build by Wave Digital up in Jersey, they stopped supporting my system now that they make only Macs ::ack!gag!::
no the main boards IDEs aren't disabled cause i've got cdroms and burners and stuff on them
but thanks for trying. -j
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 25, 2003 01:56 pm When I put my Promise card in my older Me system, same MoBo though. It picked everything right up. I had the MoBo IDEs filled and 3 drives on the Promise card and everything worked fine without having to tweak the Bios. Maybe I got lucky, who knows.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am You should probably check to make sure they have the pin in the right place to make it either a slave or master. That can cause a problem. Does it see the drive at all?
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am Ya, what brand is it? Western Digital, aside form being all-around lame hard drives, are also very weird about jumper placement on their drives...
Feb 27, 2003 05:01 am for that matter every drive has their oddities with that.
Feb 27, 2003 07:58 am yeah, it's a Western Digital Caviar 80GB, i took it out a few months ago when i realized i couldn't format it..
crap lemme think.. i think it was displaying in the list that comes up when you boot the machine up, but windows wasn't recognizing it at all..? baye i'll tear my box apart today and start messing with it.. i have some RAM chips to swap out anyways.
it's just that everytime i do that, open it up i mean, i get nowhere and start to feel like i got ripped off on the HD, or that i'm just an idiot. and that's depressing.
do y'all think maybe i need to do something in my BIOS setup then? i'd like to have some direction before i go get the hammer and power drill. thanks!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 27, 2003 06:45 pm When adding new drives, I have the bios set to auto detect. dB was the one who convinced me that windows did a better job of classifying drives then if I put the info in myself. Darn if he wasnt right, I have not had a bit of trouble since. And adding drives in XP is easy as pie. As long as they are NTFS formatted I can swap drives in and out of my removable bays without a gliche.
Feb 27, 2003 07:53 pm no, no, I said BIOS will make better decisions, I let windows manage as few things as possible...tho XP does do a much better job than any other MS OS I have used...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 27, 2003 08:39 pm Ya, I know. I meant to refer to the bios on that second line. The windows part was to refer to XP not having any problems finding the drives once the bios recognizes them. I was having brain fade.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Feb 27, 2003 09:02 pm Yeah I get those too...
...usually after 6 pints of Stella :)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 27, 2003 09:07 pm Stella? An ale or?
Feb 28, 2003 05:43 am so lemme get this right:
(1) i open up the box and physically install the drive, doubling checking my jumper settings for both devices on that IDE channel.
(2) i boot the machine and enter setup where i'll set up the disk (or set it to auto detect)
(3) reboot
(4) machine now recognizes the disk so i can format it for use.
is that right? thanks guys! -j
Feb 28, 2003 06:24 am OK, I just looked at your profile to see what OS you are running. It doesn't say (and might I add you have way too much stuff:-).
If BIOS sees your drive in the post, then everything will be OK, go in there, set it to autodetect and reboot, if it sees it, Windows still will not until it is partitioned. Western Digital drives come with the exact same tool that Maxtors do, just a different name, Maxtor is called "MaxBlast" I dunno what Western Dig's is named. Anyway, you need that tool, if you don'thave it you can go to westerns website and download it. that will partition the drive and format it.
If you are running in Windows XP you can go to Programs > Accessories > Administration Tools > Computer Management. In that windows select Storage > Disk Management. There it will show you your drives, partitioned or not, right click on the drive and select to partition and format it, preferably using NTFS rather than FAT.
NTFS is more stable, more efficient with storage and more secure.
Feb 28, 2003 07:15 am thanks dan, i'm running win98se and my other two drives are in fat32. will that be a problem? cause i'll mostly be using the 80Gig as a back up and archival for the 15 and 20 gig drives. They're both a couple year old (seagate baricudas i believe) and i've had seagates fail before.
and i found a program at westerndigital.com called Data Lifeguard Tools. I think this is it.. so this nessesary? This must be what I was missing last time!
i think i might take this plunge today :O)
Feb 28, 2003 11:34 am now that i'm reading more abou this "Data Lifeguard" program, it seems to be more of a diagnstic tool that anything. I doesn't seem to mention anything about partitioning. In fact i can't find anything about partitioning on WD's website. I thought partitioning was when you assigned a single hardrive mutiple drive letter names. I thought *formatting* was what I need to do... damn, I am so lost... sorry
Feb 28, 2003 12:23 pm FAT won't make a problem, it's just that you won't be able to do it with Windows itself. Yes, that program you were talking about is what you need, it partitions and formats.
Feb 28, 2003 12:24 pm alright i'm gonna do this. if never make it back, remember me.
Feb 28, 2003 12:36 pm just remember to partition and format the right one :-)
Fare thee well, my friend ;-)
Feb 28, 2003 05:28 pm no luck. it's not recognizing it at all. everything just freezes on the "post" screen :(
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 28, 2003 05:42 pm the bios doesnt see it either? Maybe a bad cable, or the drive is bunk. I had a pin break on a HD once and that caused a major headache.
Feb 28, 2003 05:59 pm now i remember.. this is exactly what happened before, it was just freezing up.
the controller card is an ultra ata 66 ide and you're supposed to use these special 80 conductor ribbons with them. the first time around i was using the typical 40 conductor, and i thought that that was the problem, bu ttoday i went out and bought the proper cable, and it's still doing it. freezes up. i had to set the jumper to a bogus setting (so that it didn't think anything was there at all) just so i could finish booting up and get online ::shrugs:: guess i got ripped off :O|
Feb 28, 2003 06:24 pm Even a bad drive will be seen quite often, just not work properly. Using the 40 conductor wire won't make it not work, it will just work slower, at the ol' ATA33 speed, the 80 conductor wire will allow it to use full ATA capability.
Westerns are weird with jumper, often time as slaves they are different if there is another drive on that IDE or not. So make absolutely sure., could be a bad drive, bad cable, bad jumper settings or bad BIOS settings.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Feb 28, 2003 08:15 pm Mmm - So the whole machine freezes when you plug the drive in - or does it just not detect any Hard Drives on the system.
If it's the latter then it's a jumper configuration problem (at least it sounds like one) - try booting the machine with ONLY the Western Digital (the one that's giving you jip) Hard Drive attached.
jues.
Feb 28, 2003 08:30 pm ??? i've tried each jumper setting (i think).
i have an idea. and while i'm at it, i'll try yours jues.
oh and it just freezes when the new HD is plugged in properly. it detects my first two HDs then freezes at the secondary channel. and i know the controller's secondary's fine becayse i've had a ZIP250 on there for months. everything else works fine when i disconnect the new harddrive :O|
Feb 28, 2003 10:02 pm OMG i think i got it! I had to put it on the MoBo primary as a master, and then convice the BIOS not to call it C:\ (i made it look at the controller card channels first) and TADA! it seems to be working. i now have about 235% *more* hard drive space WOW!
still no idea why the controller card freaked out on it. Now i have my burner as a stand-alone on that channel and it's reading just fine (havn't asked it to write yet). well it's friday night, and i've got fun places to be. i'd love to stay here and check out my new stuff (and no db, i do *not* have too much stuff :O) ), no point sitting here playing with my computer on a perfectly good friday night.
thanks for all the good tips and stuff. this was a great big learning experience! -j
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 28, 2003 10:24 pm Jamie, dont feel bad. he always rides me about to much stuff too.
