More Mic Pre Questions
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Posted on Mar 31, 2008 08:50 pm
Zell
Member Since: Jan 20, 2008
Hey guys, It's been a while since my last post but find myself a little confused on some of the mic pre's out there.
I think I would really like a tube one and am looking at these:
UA solo 610 (what's the difference between this and the 110?)
www.zzounds.com.../item--UADLA610
the UA LA610 ...pricey .... is it worth it?
The grace 101 because of all of your suggestions..
www.musiciansfriend.com/p...fier?sku=180820
I guess my question is am I comparing apples to oranges here and does this take the place of the interface I was looking at which is the RME 400 or 800? If you don't mind (and if I still need it) which one of those interfaces should I be looking at?
The Imac puter will take the 800 if you guys think it's worth the extra cash.
Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing from all of ya!
Jon
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Mar 31, 2008 10:41 pm Well, to answer your question on "will it take the place of the interface." No. Unless you were just using the interface for it's Pre's. The RME 400 and 800 are also A/D/A converters. They allow the medium to be transfered to a DAW to be edited. A mic pre bings it to level so you can hear it. Then, the converter, well, converts it. Ha.
And since I've heard a UA LA610, I vote for it.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Apr 01, 2008 01:36 am I see a lot of posts about high end pre-amps and I always sit and wonder who is doing the singing? I've had a lot of singers in the studio and to date maybe two females could have benifited from a Grace. It's like putting a stratavarious in the hands of a first year violin student. Hopefully it won't get dropped. Most singers I have witnessed to date benifit from the forgiveness of a less expensive, less detailed pre. Just food for thought. Who will you be recording?
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 01, 2008 02:42 am Thanks guys! oK... so say I do go with just the mic pre... what would you suggest I use to do the converting?
SIDE-NOTE: If I understand the process here, the RME is kind of a mic pre AND a converter... sorta an all in one thing??
However, I've read where introducing this "mic pre" as earlier noted, will not only make a vocal much warmer and sit in the mix better, but that it's usually introduced before the interface. Question is, is it worth it?
Ok, I'm ignorant on the subject but if I get just a high end mic pre, do they come with software like an interface unit does?
I'm actually working with a female singer who has made it to the second round in the Nashville version of American Idol but besides that... the reviews and my research suggests it really adds a significant dimension to quality of vocals, acoustic guitars, and just about everything.
I guess I just don't know if adding a quality pre is worth it... or noticeable, especially when my direction was to go with the rme interface noted for a great universal clock, great pre-amps, very low latency, and quality construction.
My other question I guess would be if I decided to spend over a grand on a mic pre, would I still need (or notice) the benefits of a high quality interface such as the RME or could I go much cheaper (or skimp?)
thanks again all!
jon
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Apr 01, 2008 11:11 am Those preamps are just that: preamps.
The RME will do both, preamp and the conversion.
A standalone, high-end preamp is usually just an analog device. It accepts MIC level signal, and boosts it up to LINE level signal.
Getting a nice preamp, like a grace, will still leave you needing an interface, something to convert analog signal over to digital signal. This could be the RME, or a MOTU traveller, or even something with low track count. But if you're gonna spend $$$ on nice preamp, then nice converters should be involved in the equation too.
Apogee makes some higher-end converters. They spendy.
www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Rosetta200/
The 800 is more, and the single AD and DA converters are even more =).
To add, a nice mic will wake up on a nice preamp, so without a good mic to start the chain, well, you may not realize the potential of the preamp. Plus there's the room, and the singer, like Walt said.
Sounds like the 400 or 800 is really where you're looking. I think MOTU has similar devices, but I can't see you going wrong with the 400 (unless you have a 2500$ Nuemann mic, and great acoustic hall)
Apr 01, 2008 11:13 am Yes, the RME Fireface is BOTH. Although, it converters 8 channels at a time but only have a Pre for 4 channels. If I remember right. Which, that I don't get.
Just remember, your sound is only as good as the low quality thing in it. If you have a UA 8110 mic Pre but, a Lexicon Omega converter... It will still sound like ****, for the most part.
So, if you want it all to sound great, for the most part you'll need pretty top quality stuff. But, mediocre stuff with good skills is just as good and cheaper. :)
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Apr 01, 2008 11:38 am Well, I would contest the 'sound like **** ' part, but your moniker does have 'Cynic' in it =).
Apr 01, 2008 11:41 am Hey! Hey! Hey!
I was just trying to show a point. No need to... I forgot what I was going to say...
*hugs self and runs away* :)
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Apr 01, 2008 11:52 am Walt, I want the high(er) end pre for doing vox and also to use on overheads. Also, I am a gear head, I want one just because :)
Honestly, I have had maybe 3 people that were actually very good singers. They were easier to record, required less compression, and just plain sounded better. But if I can make them sound "even" better maybe I can pull in some other talented singers by word of mouth\demo cd's.
I still want two channels, so I must sell of my old PC first and I may look into getting to of the Grace 101 units. I would buy two UA 610's if I could get them under $1000.
Apr 01, 2008 12:29 pm That's the thing with high end gear. The bottom line is that you get more to work with. Often with cheap pres, you're pretty well stuck with what you get. You can try to disect the track but you can't add something that isn't there. You may be able to get a good sound out of crappy gear but decent gear will make your job that much easier and wont tie your hands if you have some problem frequencies.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 01, 2008 06:16 pm Great info all. I think I finally got that pre-amp/interface thing through my sometimes thick head.
And yes, just like a chemical reaction is only as fast as it's slowest chain, so to it is with recording gear.
That being said, what would you guys suggest for a good vocal mic (maybe under a grand or something that earned your respect and worked well for ya)?
I'd love to get an Apogee but yikes!! $$$ Do you guys think it's that much better than the rme? I learned the hard way to just save up for the RIGHT quality gear as in the long run, it's usually cheaper than buying and selling your way up to it.
I currently have an audio-technica AT4033 that I bought probably 15 years ago or so but something tells me it may not be what I need to match up to the components I've expressed an interest in here. Let me know what ya think??
Thanks again,
jon
Apr 01, 2008 09:07 pm Honestly, your UA is a good way to go if you want a GREAT single channel.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Apr 01, 2008 11:14 pm I personaly like seperate units for the most part for each segment of the process. As per vox, it get's a little dicy when trying to advocate the "best" mic and pre-amp combination. I don't mind spending money on gear if I know I am going to be able to achieve it's potential.
The first step is the roughest just per logistics. Trying before you buy. Namm shows, friends studios, etc. The try and ditch later on ebay gets old in a hurry.
I sold one gentleman a Neuman for his ham radio of all things (already I'm thinking he's a little left of center). He comes back in a month later saying it was wonderfull per it's detail, but when his wife walked on the floor above the tympanum bottomed out. I'm thinkin time for a healthy diet, but had the sense not to say that.
Now if someone like Cpt. Tripps just saz "I just want it", I can understand that. What doesn't make sense is the heard of sheep running around mumbling "bigger better more" in their sleepwalk. I guess it's fine if you have a fetish for lining the pockets of others.
One woman I'm working with right now who is a very good vocalist in the grand sceme of things, no not Ella Fitsgerald, but a damn solid Rock singer, came to me with an album from a large studio in the area who placed her in front of a Neuman (she didn't know the pre used) and we (she and I) have already surpassed the quality they produced with an MK 319 and a Behringer 1953 runing into a Delta 1010. I do have on singer I work with alot that if he continues to progress, I will move him from the 1953/319 combo to an NT1 and will seriously consider a Grace. But not yet. It would just more work for me fixing his voice in software.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Apr 02, 2008 07:38 am Brandon over at recordingreview bought apogees, feeling that this would really step up his studio.
He's been doing bands for years, and has a few hundred demos/cd/whatever to his history.
Anyway, I don't think he felt he put the $$$ in the best place. His experience says that room treatment, mic, and preamp are a bigger ingredient (at least for us home studio class) in the recipe. He also says quality material will win over quality gear every time, so there's that too =).
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 02, 2008 07:04 pm so as good as the apogee is with its converters and great pre's, the UA mic pre will bring the sound quality to an even higher level? (providing I'm using a high quality mic)
If, like some have suggested, I go with just the UA, what kind of converter would do it justice?
Now what vocal mics do use guyz like?? lol
Apr 02, 2008 07:08 pm Not sure on the mic... But, I'm a big RME or MOTU fan... But, haven't heard anything that's in a higher price range either.
Apr 03, 2008 05:16 am Yes on the UA, but its all personal opinion. Maybe you should go out and hear some different mic pres. If you can't hear the difference, then whats the point? :-)
The AT4033's a great all round mic! Mine got stolen at an airport :'-(. Off the top of my head, under a grand I'd look at the Rode NTK, Blue Dragonfly/Baby bottle, and Shure KSM 27 (or 32?, can't remember). Noize likes the Mojave mics, and you could stretch the budget and buy a peluso 2247 :-). Anything with 47 behind it gets my vote.
Quote:
I learned the hard way to just save up for the RIGHT quality gear as in the long run, it's usually cheaper than buying and selling your way up to it. Much respect.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 06, 2008 03:13 am Ive been looking at the Apogee Ensemble and was wondering if it is just overkill to have the UA tube pre AND the Ensemble?
If I get just the UA I still need the converter and the Apogee converter is about the same price as the Ensemble. I'm willing to spend some decent money on this studio, but would like to not be redundant as use the money to it's fullest band for the..... you know.
jon
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 06, 2008 05:36 pm Well, the pre in the Ensemble is going to give you a little different flavor then the UA will. The UA will be a good deal warmer sounding when pushed a bit harder. But the Pre in the Apogee is going to be crystal clear and clean as a whistle. If it gets pushed to hard it will not sound nearly as good as the UA will when pushed into the red.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 06, 2008 09:14 pm So Noize if going with the UA pre, I should then be considering the Apogee Rosetta 200 or something similar?
jon
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 06, 2008 09:45 pm That is more dependent on were you want to end up in the long run. Both are good converters so either would be a good choice. I think the Rosetta is more along the lines of a strict AD/DA converter though. I think you might get more and save a couple of dollars going the Ensemble route though in my humble opinion as it is a dedicated audio interface with very high end AD/DA converters.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 07, 2008 05:31 pm Ya that's what I find to be a little confusing so I really appreciate your help and opinion. The Rosetta is strictly an AD/DA converter.
Getting that would save me a few dollars over the Ensemble because the latter gives you the mic pre's as well. It leaves me more options for the future I suppose with the extra pre's the Ensemble offers.
Furthermore, not all instruments will benefit from the UA pre. I will more than likely be sequencing drums, playing bass and all guitars with a vocalist laying down a track at a time.
But it may be interesting if for example, I wanted to record an acoustic guitar through the UA while simultaneously using the characteristics of the super clean Ensemble.
I don't know... LOL! Has me specifying my recording direction for the foreseeable future changed your opinion Noize?
I doubt I can go wrong either way but I find most of the opinions given here invaluable before making any final decision.
Thanks again
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Apr 07, 2008 06:17 pm Tube pre and onboard pre with two mics would definitely be something I'd like to try.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 07, 2008 07:02 pm Hey Tripps,
I know I've tried miking a Tak acoustic going through a presonous interface while taking the direct line out of the guitar's pre-amp and I'm not sure I'd do that again. At least with my friends Tak anyway. The direct out wasn't worth a dam really. Completely different than what we're talking about here but thought I'd throw that in there.
I personally picked up a new Tak with the "Cool Tube" pre-amp. It actually has a vacuum tube in the pre-amp and I gotta say.... wow... what a difference! So I'd like to try the same thing but with my new guitar to see how that tracks.
Not to diverge too much, but if you play acoustic guitar live at all, I'd say it's the BEST pre-amp out there. Not to mention you can add a third dimension by adding a pickup. It will allow you to blend that in to along with the tube sound.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 08, 2008 09:54 pm Zell, no it actually hasn't changed my opinion. The thing with the Rosetta 200 is it is only 2 channels of AD/DA were the Ensemble is a full on 8 with 4 digitally controlled pre amps. And if your running a Mac it is a very straight forward and easy to use piece of gear. You may find if you choose the Rosetta that you will be adding a card to adapt it to exactly what you need and that will increase the cost as well.
My choice in your shoes would still probably be the Ensemble for the long run. Maybe more then you need today, but tomorrow it will have that extra bit you need to get the job done.
ZellMember
Since: Jan 20, 2008
Apr 09, 2008 06:43 pm Thanks Noize now if you could only help me with the right computer! lol
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 10, 2008 09:28 pm I would but it sounds as though you are looking at Mac and that I am not a Mac guy so....
Otherwise I would be up for recommending something.
