hey computer experts: what is windows doing when...
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Posted on Feb 06, 2008 06:49 pm
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
my pal and i are still troubleshooting his MOTU problem. i want to ask a specific question and keep it limited to that specific question until someone chimes in with the answer. we want to know what windows is doing when it does a specific thing, which i will explain, for any plug and play device.
1: you've got a plug and play device, like the MOTU, and it's firewire. you put the cd-rom in the tray and click on the setup file, which then begins extracting and installing (or so it says)the drivers.
2: the process finishes and you are informed that the drivers have been 'installed,' and that you now must reboot the computer.
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question about 2: what exactly did windows do during that step? unpack drivers (which are .dll files, right?) and drop them into the folders where they belong?
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3. you reboot. you connect your device. at this point something begins to happen down in the lower right taskbar, and windows tells you that the drivers are being installed.
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question about 3: didn't windows already install them? what specifically is it doing during this step?
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we want to understand this, because this is the point at which his MOTU install fails on both vista AND now on a fresh xp install that he did. at this point, windows informs him that it's installing drivers but can't find them, and would you like to look online or point the computer to their location?
an experimental install last night on a friend's vista home *premium* system last night worked. so now we're baffled. on that home premium system--but not on home basic or on XP now on his computer--the plug and play icon in the taskbar goes through some various message bubbles and then simply informs him that the MOTU is installed. since it's not working for him on his system with either vista basic or xp, he's thinking it's a hardware problem of some kind. but the secondary 'driver search' is what's puzzling me. why would it go look to install again? where is it looking? the folders it unpacked the drivers do? what problem does it encounter there when it goes looking for those drivers--which are now on the computer, not the disk, and assumedly in the proper folders?
if someone could answer the questions about what windows is doing in those stages that i mentioned, we might be better equipped to think about what's happening because we'd know what windows is trying to do, so that's the thing i'm most interested in right now.
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Feb 06, 2008 06:59 pm for starters, it's always a good idea to restart after installing anything...however...
If a program or device driver install asks you to restart, it is because during the install the application wrote new directions on your boot files, and added new files to your startup routine...along with some registry entries and crap.
You need to restart in order for the operating system to do those tasks, as the OS only looks at boot file instructions during bootup...
For device drivers you can understand why, as the drivers have to be loaded...when software asks me to do that it annoys me, unless it's a system utility, anti-virus or some such thing...otherwise, it's simply too invasive of a program if it requires boot file editing.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 06, 2008 07:04 pm Just curious forty, did you connect the MOTU before or after installing the drivers? If it was before installing the drivers, that may be where the problem is. You will have to uninstall and remove the device from the device manager. Then re-install the software, reboot and then connect the device.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Feb 06, 2008 09:25 pm BeerHunter may be right, when you install USB/Firewire devices you don't plug them in until the installation is complete and you've rebooted (if required). When you plug the device in then the drivers should be installed. If Windows can't find them you can either locate them yourself (look in the directory where Setup installed your software, or sometimes you can just point windows to C:\Windows\System32 and that will work.
One other thing if you're using a firewire port on the front panel of the computer try using one on the back, I've seen several computers have problems with the front ports. They are usually controlled by a generic USB/Firewire controller where as the ones on the rear are usually the Intel/AMD etc controllers which just seem to work better.
I've also heard that some Firewire Audio interfaces have problems if it uses any thing other than a TI (Texas Instruments) chip on the controller. So check the computer it did work on in Device Manager and see if it by chance does use a TI chip.
Dan
Feb 06, 2008 09:33 pm we are looking into to TI chip. he seems to have it.
yeah, he connected the motu after everything was installed, yes. did the driver installs with no device attached, yes.
we are confused why it worked on home premium but not on basic or xp. it all falls apart after the bootup, when he connects the motu. it tells him 'found new hardware,' then tries to install drivers (which is what that whole first phase was supposed to be about). given what db says, i would imagine the reboot would have loaded the drivers and is now trying to use them to 'name' the device and establish communication. but instead, it just says found new hardware, and never learns that it's a motu that's connected, and then it asks to be pointed to the drivers.
these problems are baffling. countless phone calls to motu, lots of promising solutions which end up not working, etc. no idea what to do, really, and really confused why it would not work on both vista basic AND xp. wouldnt that imply a hardware issue?
Feb 06, 2008 09:37 pm I find it personal reprehensible that manufacturers put out products that have that kind of anal-retentive requirements...I rememebr doing that dance with my Echo Gina back in the day, God forbid I use anything except a genuine Intel chip...
sheesh...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 07, 2008 06:39 pm Ya, that is a problem with all multi port audio interfaces. Were the simply single or two channel interface is usually a pretty straight install the multi port interfaces must install one set of drivers for each pair of channels. This can be a pain in butt if you don't have everything on the system turned off. Such as screen savers, anti virus or anything that can interrupt the install. Even the lowly Delta 44 can take a bit of time to install because of this. But most PCI interface's will install pretty easily and without problems. Its the USB and Firewire interface with their multi part installs that drive me crazy.
On the first go round with out the hardware hooked up it is simply preparing the system for the install, and setting aside the folders and registry data that it will need once the piece of gear is hooked up. USB is a little easier then Firewire but still a pain.
The second go round is when it does the true install, finding the hardware and then hard setting the registry to see it and tell the rest of the system what to do with each driver type.
If that is not followed to the nail it will go bunk. Or as well if it is interrupted in any way.
Funny how I can install a huge program like Sonar and not have any of these issues, and it is making many more registry changes then an interface will.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Feb 07, 2008 11:49 pm Yeah the driver installing situation is really stupid for USB/Firewire. With my M-Audio UNO if I use a front port on my computer I have to reboot each time plug it in for it to be recognized even though it shows as loaded and ready to go, plugged into one of the rear ports it works as it should with no reboot neccessary.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 08, 2008 10:04 pm Ya, those front USB port extensions seem to be a problem sometimes. I have seen Windoze lock up by simply plugging a USB jumpdrive in. Never happens when using a rear direct mounted port or on a PCI expansion card.
Feb 09, 2008 01:50 am would getting a new firewire card be an idea? it says mine is TI chipset (siig 800 pci 3st) but motu says sometimes siig cards are not Texas Instruments chips but say they are???
also some people have had a similar problem with the motu ultralite and ahtlon processers using nforce.. thats what i use and i hope that isnt the problem!
Feb 09, 2008 07:41 am it might be the AMD! i never thought it was the fireworks (sic) card! it makes sense, but somehow it seems unlikely. i cannot express why. we've been over it. i want a hamburger. it's MOTU's fault. they just didn't take the time to figure out how to play with stupid windows.
windows is the stupidest name ever, btw, for an OS.
i like it though. i like how broke it is.
Feb 09, 2008 05:45 pm Deleted By Cliffriff
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 10, 2008 09:43 pm It could be a slim chance that it is the CPU NorthBridge combo but I doubt it. One of the guys I mentioned earlier that is getting it to work with Vista is running an AMD X2 on an MSI MoBo with the NVidea chipset and not having any issues.
I know Siig has a rep of occasionally using a different chip on their expansion cards even though the box or spec may state it is TI or whatever if they have a big run and can't get delivery to keep up they will run with a cross over chip that might or might not be compatible.
Feb 10, 2008 11:45 pm Hey noise.. this is great advice.. do you know where i could get a slim profile ( low profile)ie slim tower friewire card with a TI chipset? that works with vista? haha so many requirements.. if you could guide me where this may be.. i checked new egg it seemd that their slim profile card is not compatible with vista and doesnt specify the chipset. if you knew where i could get this that be amazing!!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 10, 2008 11:48 pm I'll talk to a couple people tomorrow and see if they have any idea on it. They are mor into the Vista thing at that moment and have dealt with some of these issues a bit deeper. I'll let ya know tomorrow what I find out.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Feb 11, 2008 07:24 am I haven't really been following this... are you explicitly following the manuals install directions? some of these cards need you to plug them in and skip the windows install and then run the driver install off the disk...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 11, 2008 07:52 pm It is all about the Firewire drivers for the MOTU Traveler not being used by the device. Windows is telling him it is installing them and shows that it is complete and all. But when the device is connected to continue the install as with most USB and Firewire device. But in this instance it tells him it cannot locate the drivers, even when he points the app directly to it Vista or XP appear to not be able to locate them even though they are installed and show up.
The issue either lies with the Siig Firewire card not having the proper TI chipset or there is a possibility of the MoBo and CPU not playing nice with the rig.
Feb 12, 2008 09:05 pm hey noise and everyone.. this is the card i ordered. the reviews were great! let me know what you think. it doesn't specify chip but i cannot find a card that specifies TI chip that is low profile. so i have to hope it lands in the 90% of cards that are TI chips..
www.amazon.com/StarTech-c...e/dp/B0002XMZOO
Feb 16, 2008 01:48 am PROBLEM SOLVED!!! I got a new firewire card and the motu was instantly recognized!!! no new hardware or anything!! I'm so happy!! it installed automatically.. it seems the siig had the wrong chip! yes!!! thankyou to everyone!!! and it seems vista is ok after all!!! im sorry vista! i feel like the cobra kai guy at the end of karate kid telling daniel "hey man youre alright" haha
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Feb 16, 2008 05:16 am Congrats Cliff!!! I know this has been a pain in the neck ride, but I hope HRC has proven itself to you as a community of people who never stop trying, and are committed to helping everyone reach their recording goals.
Throughout this thread, I watched your messages start from reluctant and hopeless, to triumphant and confident. Sometimes it takes time. Thanks for sticking with us. :) (Sorry I had little to offer.)
Vista has a long way to come in "(*MY*)" book, but it is a viable OS, so more power to you!! I'm glad you finally got it worked out, and I'm happy it works for you :)
For now, I'll stick with my XP and be happy- if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
Feb 16, 2008 06:42 am congratulations clffrJASHNiff. i'm sure we'll run into other problems that require hour-long phone calls at 2 am in the near future. that was fun.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Feb 16, 2008 01:11 pm Great to hear you finally got the problem solved!
Dan
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Feb 17, 2008 09:21 pm Makes me happy as well. After reading some more on the MoBo and CPU combo causing some conflicts I was skeptical about that. But still believed it was the card.
Glad it is working now though for sure.
