getting started
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Posted on Dec 03, 2007 03:39 pm
c slipper
Member Since: Dec 03, 2007
Hi everyone.
I decided to get a home studio up and running a while back. I saved up some cash and now I am ready to get started. What I plan on buying is the following:
-A new computer (a new i-mac with 2gigs ram)
-mbox 2 pro with protools.
-reason or digital performer
With this setup, would I be able to produce professional quality music at home? I am looking to create music in the rock/electronic genre. Is reason or digital performer the correct program to allow me to create professional sounding beats and sequences? I have experience with protools, but thats about it. What else do I need/not need? Thanks for the help.
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Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 03, 2007 04:27 pm It's a good foundation, but there's a few other things to think about like monitors, headphones, microphones, weather or not you'll want a mixing console, external effects and processing and so on. Remember that professional studios dump hundreds of thousands of dollars into their equipment.
With the setup you listed, you can make some very respectable music, but you may want to think about your manual input options.
Dec 03, 2007 05:47 pm Thanks for the input Keith. I have studio headphones- is it recommended to have monitors, or will headphones do? I have infinite access to studio quality microphones through a friend, so I think I am ok there for now. Can most things that are done on a mixing console be done straight on the computer?
Also, there area that I am most confused about is the whole reason/digital performer subject. I was told that one of these programs are necessary, I am just not exactly sure what they are used for. I need to learn to program drums, so is that done in Reason? Are those programs pretty much sequencers? Thanks
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 03, 2007 06:06 pm On the subject of monitors, yes, you absolutely need them. You can get by without them, but when you're mixing it's a night and day difference.
Reason, digital performer, fruity loops, they're all sequencer programs. And yes, you can program drums, create new sounds and what have you.
To run virtual instruments with pro tools, you'll need a program such as these. Think of these programs as having a bunch of virtual instruments.
I don't use a sequencer, but then again I'm using Sonar 6, which has the ability to use soft synths, which are independent, midi controlled programs.
Pro-Tools doesn't have a whole lot of soft synths unless you buy them. Browse for RTAS Soft synths online and see whet you can come up with.
Do you NEED a sequencer? The answer depends on what you're trying to create and which DAW you're working with. In your case, I would say yes.
Dec 03, 2007 06:14 pm You won't be able to produce ANY music with ProTools - it's just too complicated and offers nothing you need to do good quality home recordings (yes I'm bitter).
At least consider other options such as Logic or Garageband before committing.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 03, 2007 06:34 pm I have to agree a bit on the Pro Tools thing. You will find that if you want to use any software synths and such, it will all cost extra to be able to use them. Not that the higher end software synths don't cost extra in other programs as well. but in Pro Tools you are limited to their proprietary software packages and nothing is free at all for PT.
Garageband will allow you a little more freedom and it will come free with a Mac OS.
Dec 03, 2007 07:41 pm Thanks for the advice everyone. If I don't use protools, how do I record vocals and guitar? Also, if I want to go into a studio at some point and layer in real drums, wouldn't I need to have protools at home? Thanks again for the help
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 03, 2007 08:19 pm That depends on the studio you will be going into. Most good studios will have multiple platforms to work on.
As well if you run a recording app that can export a project as an OMF file that can be opened in several DAW's. I think Logic does OMF, not sure about Garageband.
An recording DAW will record audio.
Will you be using midi at all? If not then maybe PT will work OK for you. But you need to realize that the PT you get with the M-Box is a lite version of the application and has limits to what it can do. But in your case it sounds like you may not be needing that many tracks.
When you say guitar and vocals are you talking acoustic guitar or electric? And how many tracks do you thing you will need to do a full project?
This can help us figure out what might work best for you.
Dec 03, 2007 08:55 pm I think that I will definately be using midi. I want to use a lot synthesized pads/leads/looped sequences. I will be playing mostly electric guitar, but I want to record from an amp (I have a mic). In any given song, I will probably have 2-3 guitar tracks, a bass track, 2-3 midi tracks, 2 vocal tracks, and then drums (does each drum have its own track: snare, kick, hi hat, ect..?).
I want to create music similar to a Grand National sound. If you don't know them, maybe you could listen to a song from their site and tell me what I would need to get a similar sound. It would be extremely helpful! Their site is www.grand-national.net/site/av/ . If you listen to the songs Talk Amongst Yourselves and then Drink To Moving On, you will get the idea of the sound I am trying to achieve.
Thanks again for all the help!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 03, 2007 09:25 pm c slipper, I'll get back to you tomorrow as I'm off to bed soon here. But I think we can recommend something that might work better and be more cost effective in the end.
I iwll go take a listen tomorrow as well to get an idea of what you are going to be after.
And also Welcome to HRC.
Dec 03, 2007 09:40 pm Sounds good. Thanks for all the help. I edited my post above to a better link to the songs I want you to hear. I think by listening to these songs, you will get a great taste of what I am looking for (also, the band is amazing and you should listen to the songs anyway!).
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 03, 2007 10:05 pm Actually, if you want to go to a professional studio, it wouldn't matter what they're using- you could always have them bounce each drum to track and go home to mix them, right? Just bring what pre-pro you have done to use as backing?
The Mbox 2 comes with Pro Tools 7 LE, which is a little lighter than the HD and 7 systems, but is fully capable and can handle up to 32 audio/ 128 virtual/ 256 midi tracks. Suitable for almost any type of music production.
I am with Tony in the thought that it may not be your best option though. It can be overly complicated in some areas, even for veterans of the software. You might want to read up on Adobe Audition, Garage Band, Logic, and Sonar 7 and contrast them to your needs. Take your purchase of a DAW very consciously, as it will have a huge impact on how you'll be making your music. If you're dead set on using Pro Tools, thats OK, but there are a lot of more affordable programs whose ability far surpass that of Pro Tools right out of the box.
On the drums question, it may depend on your sequencing program, so as far as your sequencer questions, they would be better answered by another member, since I don't use one and am not familiar with any of them.
The Grand National stuff is pretty cool. Reproducing that kind of sound depends heavily on your creativity.
Dec 03, 2007 11:00 pm Thanks Kieth. If you were to not use Protools, what interface would you recommend for the vocals/guitar/bass? Do logic and the rest of those programs support real audio? As you can tell, I am new to this, but I am willing to spend money I saved and I am a quick learner. However, I do want to make sure I am getting the right equipment. Thanks again.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 04, 2007 03:59 am We all have to start somewhere, right? I can tell you're eager to start your project, which is awesome.
Adobe Audition, Garage Band, Logic, and Sonar 7 are all programs that do exactly what ProTools does, only (in my opinion) better. My day "job" is interning at an ex-Pro Tools studio; we've shelved the entire HD system for Sonar 7 because its simply better for our needs. At home, I use Sonar 6 and producing my whole album with basically nothing and still getting fantastic results. I guess my point is that ProTools may be considered the "industry standard" right now, but that opinion is start to shift. I think of it as a "ProTools Ferrari." I'm happy with my "Sonar Mustang Cobra." They both drive, just one's a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain, and can be changed to suit whatever my needs may be, whereas ProTools is expensive, confusing, and most of the time ridiculous in ways I can't even define.
I HIGHLY recommend Cakewalk Sonar 7 PE (the link is at the bottom of the post.) It comes with a built-in drum sequencer, VSTi's, editing effects, hell, it comes with more things than I can list!! And at 500$, it's a steal compared to ProTools HD, which I would say isn't nearly as flexible or even come close to being it's equal. But in the end, it all comes down to personal preference, and what works best for you. There's plenty of guys on here who use Cubase, or Adobe Audition, or even FREE software like Cool Edit, (all of which are capable of live and midi audio) and get professional results.
I'm off to work, I'll try to answer some of your other questions later today and see if I can help get you going.
Here's the Sonar link:
www.cakewalk.com/Products...New/default.asp
Dec 04, 2007 02:12 pm Well you have all just saved me many hours of frustration with Protools as I see that it is probably not ideal for me. Sonar looks great Kieth, is it Mac compatible? If I were to go in the Sonar direction, is there a recommened piece of hardware to go with it for inputs (equivalent to the Mbox, I am not sure what it is called), where I plug in the guitar, bass, keyboard/midi controller?
Also, would going in the Sonar direction eliminate the need for a program like Reason, where I could sequence midi parts? Or does Sonar do it all?
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 04, 2007 02:44 pm As a precursor, I wasn't trying to deter you from Pro Tools, just trying to help you get whats right for you.
You can run Sonar on a Mac if you have OS-X and use a program called bootcamp, which is a little bit of overkill I think. I find that using a PC works better for my personal studio, but Mac works just as well, there's just a different array of software thats compatible. If you're set on using a Mac, check out Cubase 4 in the link below.
As far as external audio interface, if you only need a couple audio inputs, like for recording solo, the Toneport UX2 seems to come up every time. But since you'll be needing midi, assuming you'll be using a midi controller such as a keyboard, I'd point you towards something like the Tascam FW1082; somewhat of a 3 in one external alternative, to save you from desk clutter.
On the subject of Sonar eliminating the need for a program like Reason, it depends on your needs. I sequence all my midi by hand using Sonar, and I don't need all the sounds that Reason offers, but at some point you may feel like expanding. I think this question would be better answered by Noize or someone like that who have/do use both and can better explain to you the need for it.
www.steinberg.net/987_1.html
Dec 04, 2007 03:41 pm I know you weren't trying to deter me from protools, but you opened my eyes to the whole world of home recording. I figured Protools was the only option!
I definatley want to go in a mac direction, so I guess I should look heavily into either Logic or Cubase (over Sonar)?
If Logic and Cubase have built in sequencers, would the only real reason to buy Reason would be for the sounds and synths it offers? I guess I am confused about the way people combine real audio and midi, something I want to be doing a lot of. Do producers create the midi first in a sequencer, and then trasfer the data into a DAW like Logic/Cubase where they then record the real audio over it?
I want to have a huge array of synths and drums available in midi, and then combine it with real audio for guitars, bass, and vocals. So even if the DAW I get has a sequencer, I feel that if I want a wide selection of tones and synths, I would still have to go with a program like Reason as well. Is this correct? I know sequecing may not be where your expertise is, but you certainly know enough to get me started. Thanks again.
Dec 04, 2007 04:01 pm Sounds like c slipper is looking for something similar to what I want to do. Cakewalk Project Version 2.5 was recommended to me. Project is more oriented towards one-man-band pattern based composing but also has audio recording capabilities.
[edit] Nevermind, Project is not Mac compatible. Dunno if it'd work with Bootcamp.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 04, 2007 04:02 pm Yeah, if I were you I'd look into Cubase or Logic, though some people find Logic a bit confusing, it's still a good DAW. You might want to think about using Garage Band as well- it comes free with a Mac and does pretty much what other DAW's do.
On your question of the midi sequencer, I don't feel I'm the right person to answer that questions. Where ya at Noize?!
I use just Sonar, VSTi's, and a program/ plugin called Dimension Pro for all my needs, so the more I think about it, I'd like to know the answer to your 'Reason' question as well.
You're really wanting to get this going, which again is awesome. It's nice to see this kind of enthusiasm <thumbs up>
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 04, 2007 04:07 pm Yeah Kenneth, I would have suggested Project 5 or something like that, but he's going Mac though.
Dec 04, 2007 04:09 pm haha, see edit. =P
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 04, 2007 04:16 pm lmao, it's all good.
And you can run just about any windows program on a Mac with Bootcamp. Not sure about P5 though
Dec 05, 2007 02:01 pm As we wait to see if someone answers about the whole Reason thing, I thought I would ask another question:
I have a Yamaha S30 Synthesizer. If I am plugging this into whatever external audio interface I get with a midi cord, will it be able to use whatever sounds it has programmed onto it as midi on the computer? I know that I could just plug it in as audio to get those sounds, but if I want to be able to use the sounds as midi, would I be able to? Or is the keyboard either a midi controller or an audio synthesizer only? Sorry if this sounds confusing, I lack the recording vocab to clearly state what I am asking.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 05, 2007 03:09 pm You will be able to use the sounds on the S30. But in the end you will record it as audio to get it into the mix. It will send and receive midi data to and from whatever recording software you decide to use. But it does not send audio through the midi cable, only note and controller data.
I was in the same boat for awhile years ago, using my Juno as a controller but the sounds as well. I simply recorded the midi note data into Sonar and then let i play it back after I had edited it and recorded it as an audio track. You will be able to do the same thing.
And ya, for the most part many of us use Reason only as a synth and processing rack in software. I really don't use it even that much anymore as I have so many other software synths and processor's now I don't have a need for it at all.
But yes, if you were to choose to run Sonar or Project 5 on the ported Mac they will come with some pretty killer software synths as in Reason. And there are tons of free software synths out there that are absolutely killer and some even compare to software synths that cost several hundred dollar's.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 05, 2007 03:34 pm OK, well I got a chance to listen to a few of their tracks at the link you posted.
I will say that while you could easily and I have produced tracks of that kind in Project 5 you might be a bit ahead of the gaem going with the likes of Sonar or Cubase or Logic. For one simple reason, The ability to export the tracks in a more usable fashion to take them to another studio to record the drums as you were talking about.
But having said the, you can as well do it with Project 5 also. Simply export the mix and bring that to the studio to do the drums. Then have them export the drum tracks to wav and then you simply import them back into Project 5 and mix away.
But to be honest, again while I have done finished or pore master type mixes right out of Project 5 I do still turn to Sonar to finish a mix as the tools are a bit more sophisticated and will honestly do a bit more then you will be able to do in Project 5.
And both P5 and Sonar will give some extreme editing tools for both midi and audio that are not available elsewhere without buying some extra pluggins and such.
Dec 06, 2007 12:35 pm Thanks for the feedback Noize. I probably won't be bringing the tracks into a studio to do the drums, I was just wondering if it was possible eariler.
So I have come to the conclusion that I will simply start with Cubase or Logic, and if I find that I need more later on, I'll look into Reason. As long as I have a midi sequencer, the ability to quantize, and the ability to make some nice drum beats with either Cubase or Logic, I will be all set for now. Noize, do you have experience with either of these DAWs?
I guess the last piece I need is the external audio interface. Kieth suggested the Tascam FW1082, although I don't know if I need the whole control panel with sliders (do I?). Would something like the MOTU Ultralite work well too? What do you suggest? I don't see myself needing more than 2 audio inputs, 2 mic inputs, and a midi input.
Thanks.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 06, 2007 12:54 pm No, you dont need the whole control panel, I was just throwing it out there. It got ya to look at other interfaces, right? te he he.
The Motu should work for your needs just fine.
Dec 06, 2007 01:14 pm Yes it did Keith, thanks again for the help.
Now I am just getting frustrated though, cause right after I pretty much decide on Cubase (everyone complaining about how hard Logic is to use well turned me off), I go and find the video Noize posted in another thread about Sonar 7 (www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=5424 ) and it makes it look incredible. Although I really wanted to get a mac, it might be worth it to just get a pc instead and go for Sonar.
Dec 06, 2007 01:20 pm All the applications pretty much do the same things, it's just a matter of picking one and learning it.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 06, 2007 09:24 pm sorry c. :-)
But as dB said, they all do the same thing. Some just have better or more tools then others. And indeed, while I find cubase much easier to use then Logic I am still a die hard Cakewalk user. Sonar 7 has become what most DAW users look for. Something that can be customized to fit anyones needs. They were the first to take a lot of the steps we now see standard in may DAW's. And once again they jumped ahead by making the whole thing even more user friendly. Things I have simply gotten used to but wished I could change are now easily changed to suite my project needs. And they have included more high end tools then any other DAW on the market, and that includes Pro Tools. And its part of the package, not an extra charge.
OK enough of the sales talk, back to your immediate needs. I guess if you are going to go with the MOTU, and I highly recommend that hardware as well. I would start with the version of software they supply, or even a freeware application to get your hands dirty. Then once your comfortable with were things are going, you can make the jump head first into something like Sonar 7 PE.
It is really a matter of how quickly you think you can pick things up. There are plenty of tutorials included with Sonar, and on the Cakewalk site as well as youtube and the like.
Oh ya, as a side note. dB, do you remember meeting Brandon at one of the GC Cakewalk deals? I think it was for either Sonar 3 or 4. He had glasses and shorter hair back then. And if I remember correctly he crashed his laptop while pilling on some pluggins.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 07, 2007 01:03 am I second every word Noize said, except for the side note; I'm not sure what thats about.
Anyway c, mac or pc, whatever the case, choose whats right for you. It seems to me like you're making an extremely careful decision, which is a good thing. Most people jump right in and start buying stuff up, but you're on an even keel and want to get off on the right foot. cool.
There are pros and cons to both mac and pc. I suggest your next step, if you're torn between the two, is to weigh the pros and cons and take it from there.
Dec 07, 2007 12:10 pm Well I guess I am ready to get started. I will definitely be around the boards learning as much as I can. Thanks so much for your help guys, I would have been lost with out it!
-Scott
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 07, 2007 05:00 pm Keith, the side note is related to the video link that c posted the page for. I used to go to the release tour's every year for Cakewalk stuff to get a copy pre release at a discount. Brandon is a long time Cakewalk geek. And I think it was the first time dB and I went to one together he was the dude on the road show. So thats all that was about. If you haven't seen the video go have a look for more drooling fun.
