newbe but I did a little homework

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Member Since: Oct 31, 2007

So. I bought an m-audio fast track pro, and installed the driver without difficulty. plugged in my electric guitar.It has a trs and an xlr input and should record fine on the stereo setting.I set my levels and recorded a song. I use cakewalk guitar recording software and a pair of bose headphones all conected without too much trouble. Basically the first recorded track sounded like crap.then the next and the next. My laptop is xp and it meets all requirements for the hardware and the software. I didn't much care for wearing the headphones so I bought a pair of M-Audio BX5A's they work fine. So what do you think causes the crumbby recordings. Garbled sounds from hell. Pitch in and give me some advice Thanks Peter

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Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Oct 31, 2007 10:48 pm

It's really hard to say here but some stuff.

Are you recording at 16 or 24 bit (you should be), at least 44.1khz ??

Are you getting guitar effects from the cakewalk software ?? Is that all setup correct.

I realize it's frustrating but with so little info to go on it's a challenge :)

Member
Since: Jun 02, 2007


Nov 01, 2007 01:50 am

Can you post a sound clip?

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Nov 01, 2007 04:52 am

I took a peek at the device on maudio's site.

First, knowing what it sounds like will probably help a bunch: is it running normal speed? does it sound overdriven, like way too loud? Is it way quiet? and dull sounding? Be more specific. A clip would help too.

Now, sounding garbled, sounds like a level issue. Like you're driving it too hard. You say you set levels, but I'll go through it again, case you missed something.

Use XLR inputs for mics, use the 1/4" input for instruments or line level devices. I know it's the same jack, but the device will know what type of jack you're using.

If you're using guitar or bass, then use the inst setting (push button). If you're using a processor, or drum machine, something with 1/4" outputs, then use the line level setting.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't use stereo, unless I knew I was using a stereo signal. Let the software make your stereo signal for you. It will later on in the process.

Create some signal, and be sure the device is registering signal (green light on front), but almost never lighting the 'clip' light. Just under clipping when you're playing loudest should be fine.

Inside the software, if you have a control panel for the device, see that you have signal bouncing it's meter. If the meter isn't running around -10db, then adjust it's digital gain to get it in that area. You can also use the device's gain knob to adjust this, but I'd rather not if I could help it.

Now, in Cakewalk, arm your track and see that your levels are good, around -10db. This should be for your loud playing / signal.

Record your signal, playing normal. When you see the waveform on the screen, it should be thick, but not totally thick.

Play this back, and watch the output meters. I'm not sure how this works in cakewalk, but most I've seen are similar, showing incoming signal strength when recording, then showing output signal strength when playback. If the signal strength on playback is in the same area (-10db or so) then it's not the PC.

If you've already done these, and they are all in good shape, then I apologize for going over un-necessary troubleshooting. Report back and we can pursue further.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Nov 01, 2007 06:13 am

agreed with pjk, but i'd like to add...

making a great sounding song isn't as easy as plug and play....

there MANY subtleties involved (as in with any other artform)....

you're pretty much grabbing your water paints and wondering "where's the Monet?"

you can spend a whole lifetime perfecting this art (and a whole lifetime's worth of income) and still be disapointed....

my advice to you would be learn the art of tracking (recording) and mixing....study up and practice ALOT if you want to sound "pro".....just because something says "CD quality" dosn't mean that it'll sound as good as the major lables.

i'm not tryin' to discourage your efforts, but there are people that spend their whole life trying to make things sound good, and there's a reason for it...IT'S HARD!

your room that you're monitoring in, the monitors themselves, AND their position in the room, have ALOT to do with this....

mixing in a 'colored' environment is like painting with blue glasses on.... you're gonna overcompensate. which means if your listener listens to your mix with the same monitors in the same room, it'll sound "good"....but getting the mix to 'translate' to other systems is a MUCH harder task.

treat your room appropriately and effectively, and this will make the job much more easier.

Member
Since: Oct 31, 2007


Nov 01, 2007 10:04 am

The levels seem to be fine. Green with an infrequent red.The choices for tracking are left - right - or stereo. I used all of these without much success.I havn't recorded a song just some scales blues turn arounds just to get a feel for the Cake walk software and set levels etc. You are all right it seems to be over driven. I tried adjusting the tone and volume knobs on my guitar, then the gain on the fast track Pro, then setting the software db. They all stay in the green on the interface. My objective is to just track some guitar and voice mess around with that until I am tracking at a decent clairity. For sure I am new but I have a feel for the concepts. Perhaps I might need to replace the interface with something a little better. I bought used just to get into some hobby recording. Maybe some suggestions in this area.The basics don't seem all that hard, the art will come, and I plan to stay with it.I will try to figure out how to send a sound clip so you can hear what I'm dealing with. This is a fun hobby and at 63 yrs old I'm not chasing babes so I have plenty of time. Thank all of you for your input. Peter

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Nov 01, 2007 11:06 am

It sounds like your interface is set correctly if you're seeing mostly green with infrequent red on the clip meter. That sounds perfectly within normal parameters.

So that leaves the software and/or operating system settings. Something somewhere is set too hot. Does the fast track come with M-Audio's Control Panel application? Is there a little "M" on your system tray? If so, double-click it and take a look at how the levels look there. If they're too hot, turn them down.

If that's not the issue then it has to be the software. Check the fader on the track where you're recording and make sure the signal isn't too hot there. Same goes for the master bus for your project. If you see consistent red anywhere on any of those meters, then you'll know where to turn it down.

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Nov 01, 2007 11:09 am

I'm a little concerned at the "mostly green with infrequent red" part. Clipping in digital is completely unforgiving. On analog tape etc. it was actually quite cool in its place. I'd just be sure to keep things out of the red - or even approaching the red.
$0.02


Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Nov 01, 2007 11:41 am

It’s interesting though –

I did a little research the other day and I learned something. It’s not clipping that produces the distortion. It’s something called “wrapping.”

Quote:
In digital signal processing, clipping occurs when the signal is restricted by the range of a chosen representation. For example in a system using 16-bit signed integers, 32767 is the largest positive value that can be represented, and if during processing the amplitude of the signal is doubled, sample values of 32000 should become 64000, but instead they are truncated to the maximum, 32767. Clipping is preferable to the alternative in digital systems — wrapping — which occurs if the digital hardware is allowed to "overflow", ignoring the most significant bits of the magnitude, and sometimes even the sign of the sample value, resulting in gross distortion of the signal.


I always wondered why I could run my levels a bit above 0 dB without the horrible consequences. Now my guess is that some software/hardware is designed to clip up to a certain point until it wraps.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Nov 01, 2007 11:59 am

Pete, for home recording I strongly recommend the Line6 Toneport.

* UX1 is cheapest
* UX2 is slightly more but allows two inputs and is worth the extra
* KB37 includes a keyboard for MIDI

These are just far and away the best products for home recording. They give you an interface for the recording + tons of guitar,bass and vocal amp and effects modeling.

If you're not comfortable with Cakewalk try out Kristal, a free source forge version of a tracking program.

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Nov 01, 2007 02:44 pm

The FastTrack will do the job fine. Don't go exchanging it quite yet. I'm sure that we can get you up and running without distortion, unless its simply a faulty unit.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Nov 01, 2007 03:36 pm

Quote:
They all stay in the green on the interface.


If you mean the device, then you still have to check you input levels in the control panel, and in your software. Somewhere along the line it sounds like something is getting overdriven.

Quote:
I bought used just to get into some hobby recording.


This could be an issue, there could be a faulty chip, driving the signal too much, but it would show up in software, I would think. But maybe not. If the signal is getting crackled by a faulty chip, but the level of the crumbly signal is below a problem, then it will still 'look' like a good track, but actually be full of gook.

I'm thinking out loud here . . .


Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Nov 01, 2007 03:47 pm

"Garbled, crumbly, crackly" etc. are very subjective descriptives and hard to interpret.

I'll need to hear a sample before I can form an opinion.

Member
Since: Oct 31, 2007


Nov 01, 2007 06:40 pm

I have the interface working properly and set up correctly.(M-Audio Fast Track Pro) Levels all within the green.The software fader is adjusted correctly. (Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro)The master Buss I'm a bit confused about, how to turn it down specifically.Each Track has 2 aux buss's but where do I turn down the main Buss. The tracks are still over driven but the monitors don't sound that way when recording only the playback.Is it my new introduction to Cakewalk or could I be missing something. One other problem is that it appears I can only sample at 16bits with the M-Audio fast track pro but the software can sample at 24 bits. When I check the 24 bit box I get a message that my interface doesn't support that. One step at a time until I get a fairly clean track recorded. Thanks to everyone Peter

Member
Since: Oct 31, 2007


Nov 01, 2007 06:43 pm

To Herb,
How do I put a sample on the site ?

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Nov 01, 2007 07:02 pm

if you get stuck email it to me at [email protected] and I can post it.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Nov 01, 2007 09:00 pm

Looking at the fast track pro... I am completely confused by it... it has a Lin/Inst. button... how the hell do you switch it to Mic level? Mics and instruments are completely different impedances... there should be a hiZ/loZ button...





Quote:
I always wondered why I could run my levels a bit above 0 dB without the horrible consequences.


thats a mixture of things...

1. playing back clipping is basically the attempt to apply DC to the speaker coil to hold it in place fully extended (relatively) ... speaker cones have mass... and the coil is a spring... so holding it in place is difficult... you can't hear the clipping because the speaker isn't being held in place because the 'clip' was too short for it to stop... or the clip was too short for you to hear.

2. clipping is bad for a couple reasons..

- it sounds bad
- it applies DC to the coil causing it to heat up and can burn it up.
- the head can warp the coil effecting the rest of the sound.... including something similar to DC offest (aka changing the physical location of 0db)


Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Nov 01, 2007 09:39 pm

Peter, to upload a song or sample simply go to the Mu Account button and you'll see the drop down menu. Select Manage my Songs and that will take you to were you can upload your music or sample of said music.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Nov 01, 2007 10:21 pm

Quote:
thats a mixture of things...etc.


zek, I was referring to digital data. Not voltage, current, and loudspeakers.

Different stuff.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Nov 02, 2007 03:50 am

when tracking (recording) to a digital medium, clipping (gooin' into the red) is unacceptable. every time you hit the red, you're degrading the sound....and it only gets worse from there.... keep things in the green and yellow, and if it's hitting red, turn it down so it doesn't.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Nov 02, 2007 07:28 am

OK, I had to read zek's post again three or four times.

[quote]- it applies DC to the coil causing it to heat up and can burn it up.
- the head can warp the coil effecting the rest of the sound....[/quote]

Really?

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Nov 02, 2007 08:09 am

[quote]Looking at the fast track pro... I am completely confused by it... it has a Lin/Inst. button... how the hell do you switch it to Mic level? Mics and instruments are completely different impedances... there should be a hiZ/loZ button...
[/quote]

I would assume that the circuitry is default to mic level, but when you insert a 1/4" plug, the jack will disconnect the XLR inputs, and route signal from the 1/4" connections instead.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Nov 02, 2007 04:21 pm

Well since Sonar's version 5 it has been much more forgiving of a digital clip. In fact after the 6.2 patch it became even more forgiving. Now in 7 it seems that is still able to take a bit of pushing the red and not trash a good take. Working alone many times I may be in another room and not able to see the meter. And yes, on occasion it has been in the red a good deal, with no ill effects. I'm not sure if they have modified their audio engine or what, but pushing the red Like I have been has actually seemed to give a very decent sound. Might just be my set up having something to do with, but I do know that they have intentionally designed a bit of forgiveness into the audio engine.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Nov 02, 2007 04:24 pm

I was thinking that too pjk... but then you wouldn't be able to use a 1/4" cable for a mic because it'd automagically change the impedance to instrument... maybe it's in the software mixer (if any).

I think being about to go over 0 in the software is because of the 32bit floating point system...



I guess the final answer is we need to hear it :)

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Nov 02, 2007 04:35 pm

I think it should be mentioned, that there's at least three different 'gain' locations: 1) Device preamp, 2) Maudio control panel, 3) software gain (in the DAW software).

I'm gonna guess that the first one is OK, as Pete's cleared that one. I would look into the next two.

Again, I'd want to eliminate the possibility of the device having a broken bit somewhere, if it's sending mashed signal. I may not be clipping (over 0db), but sending mashed signal none-the-less.

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