Kick drum help...
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Posted on Jan 11, 2007 06:54 pm
unclemole
Member Since: Dec 12, 2006
Well I got my mixer... It's a Behringer XENYX1222FX. I almost went with a yamaha but the sound quality was much better on the behringer... anywho...
I'm running two overheads and one kick drum. They aren't great mics but they get the job done... I have the perfect tone/pan and reverb on the overheads but i'm having trouble with the kick... I'm recording meavy metal and i need that perfect tone... what should i do? I have like 100 different types of reverb and delay and such... but what about the bass,mid and trebble?
just want that kick to be clear!
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Jan 11, 2007 07:12 pm First...NEVER apply reverb or delay to a bass instrument. The purpose of bottom end is to be solid and well-defined. Ditto for most other effects, although there can be some exceptions.
A good sound starts with a good sounding instrument. New heads and proper tuning are a must. Depending on the drum's quality and construction, you may or may not need or want muffling. Then there's the question of one head or two, etc.. There are a lot of variables here, many based on taste, and which require a lot of experimentation. Mic placement is one of them.
Then it's the mic. Your profile lists a no-name karaoke mic for the kick. That's gotta go. There are some decent kick mics to be had, starting at around $100 and up. Get the right mic on a good sounding drum, and you shouldn't have to labor heavily on EQ.
Josh RoseJR ProductionsMember
Since: Mar 03, 2005
Jan 11, 2007 07:53 pm Like Herb said, the good sound starts with a good sounding instroment. If you want a really clicky sounding kick drum (like most metal songs use), try
a) deadening the kick drum a fair amount,
b) switching to a platic beater
c) tapin a quarter to the bass drum head for maximum click (but MAKE SURE to put it on the inside of the head so that you don't punch a quarter sized hole through your bass drum head in 5 minutes)
Jan 11, 2007 08:04 pm If you're using a plastic beater, or a wooden one like I used to, it might also be a good idea to affix a thin piece of leather where the beater hits the head, for reinforcement. Also, if you're looking for that hyper-clicky sound Josh mentioned, you'll want to snug the mic up pretty close to the head.
Jan 13, 2007 05:51 am Wow you guys rock... It sound so much better... But which Should I do?
Continue to use the crappy mic in the kick? (which really doesn't sound bad)... and Keep the Shure on the overhead?
Or put the shure in the kick and put the crappy mic on the overhead?
Jan 13, 2007 11:39 am Just buy some new ones. Even if it means giving up your Internet connection.
Jan 13, 2007 04:56 pm i share all our bills with 3 roomates... i think they might be pissed if i canceled cable and tv lol...
Jan 13, 2007 07:31 pm C'mon now, unclemole. Good microphones are like A-1 sauce.
Yep, they're that important. :-)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 13, 2007 07:52 pm I guess I would try them each way. The use the set up that works and sounds the best to you.
Jan 13, 2007 07:59 pm Thanks Noize. I should've added that.
Jan 13, 2007 09:59 pm yeah i suppose ill just have to spend some time messin with the mics, finding the right sound.
(btw)no A-1 for me. All i need is the meat!
Jan 13, 2007 10:08 pm That's what my first wife said. I ended up getting some seasoning anyway.
Jan 14, 2007 07:35 am ooooooooooh. nice.
Jan 14, 2007 11:35 am In my experience, the real snap/punch of the kick comes after you record it. Throw a gate on it if it bleeds too much (which in metal, and with cheap omni-directional mics, it usually does), throw a bit of compression on there, and pop 100hz and somewhere in the 4khz-6khz range a few dB for punch and click.
Works for me anyway!
Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am That's pretty much what i do, too, if I'm going for that modern, rock kinda sound...
A 40hz to 80hz roll-off will help enormously, too, preferably before tracking.
Jan 17, 2007 02:35 am ummm. im not too sure what 100hz is... or 4khz-6khz... dB for kick?
40-80hz roll off???
don't get what you mean there
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jan 17, 2007 03:55 am Using equilization to roll off those frequencies.
Jan 17, 2007 07:15 am i don't really understand what that means... sorry.. im just a beginner!! "the reduction of signal level as the frequency of the signal moves away from the cut-off frequency, especially when the cut-off rate is mild"- i do not understand that at all...
put some chicken scratch on there to get it through my skull would ya?
Jan 17, 2007 07:17 am roll off essentially mean cut the EQ starting at that frequency...
Jan 17, 2007 07:41 am so...4khz-6khz means i'd set the dial within those two points in the MIDs or the HIGHs?
40-80hz roll off... means set the LOW between the two?
and 100hz on the LOW?
i really dont get the relationship between lows, mids, and highs with Hz and kHz.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 03:12 pm Personally, I'd keep the nicer mics on the OH's. They capture many sounds where the kick mic does not so much. With comp, eq and maybe a Multiband compressor you should be able to pull at least a decent kick tone out of it.
And then yes, buy some mics :)
On the EQ, basically with a graphic eq (lotsa vertical sliders) each one controls a frequency low->High from left to right. 100Hz (or close to) will be reperesented by a slider. By raising that one a tiny bit you get more volume in the 100hz area, which in turn is a good frequency for boosting punch in a kick drum. 4k-6k are higher frequencies, you will see sliders for these also. This is a good area to bring out the click in your kick.
The rolloff is a different monster. If you roll off at 80hz, basically it starts at 80 and slowly gets quiter all the way down to the lower frequencies. In chicken scratch you could think of it as a volume fader but for freq's. If rolled off at 80hz, any tones at 60hz will be quiter than 80hz, 40hz even quiter than 60hz, etc.. etc..
Hope that helps. My advice, go to www.homerecordingconnecti...at&cat_id=3 and read anything regarding EQ's or Frequencies, I did it and learned heaps.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 03:14 pm Oh also, if your kick sounds kind of like cardboard, lowering freq's somewhere between 350-500 can clean it up also.
Jan 17, 2007 04:50 pm oh ok so your talkin about these bad boys...
since mine has diff numbers... judging by what you told me..
-Id raise the 160 a little for boosting the punch in the kick...
-Id turn the 400 way down to get rid of the empty awful sound?
-Id raise the 2.5 and 6.3 sliders to give it that click!
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 17, 2007 04:59 pm When making EQ adjustments, be gentle. If you get to making radical adjustments, you can often do more damage than good.
The key is to get it sounding good before you even record it by playing with mic placement and drum tuning. If you're having to crank your EQ sliders/dials one way or the other, then you may want to rethink what you're trying to accomplish.
There are exceptions to this rule, but when you're first starting out it can be especially true.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 05:01 pm Ok, that's a small eq, not alot of adjustment but some will help. BTW, There is no set in stone setting at all. But if you have an understanding of what is affected by said freq then you should be able to dial in a tone you like. Those numbers I used are just what works on my kick (22" maple 9ply). I would tweak it a tad before recording (for a workable track) and then use your software EQ's (which will have many more bands/sliders) giving you more precision.
Happy hunting, kicks are a pain in the butt yet so crucial.
But yeah, main key is to listen while adjusting.
Jan 17, 2007 05:11 pm wont adjusting the EQs after recording mess with everything else? It all comes in as one track into my comp when I record so I can't only adjust the kick...
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 05:16 pm Oooooohhhh, wasn't aware of that. You are indeed correct. Not alot of control then, just have to do what you can.
Jan 17, 2007 05:18 pm haha alright. something tells me to keep my lows around 11. mids about 10. and highs about 3.
we use a lot of double bass so i cant have a lot of LOWs...
should I pad it as well?
Jan 17, 2007 05:25 pm Haha, uhh... all in one track?! What software / hardware are you using?
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 17, 2007 05:27 pm I think I've said all I know. As far as EQ, I think it's better to cut what you don't want vs. boosting what you do (as much as possible). Cut what you don't like and maybe boost the input signal from the kick.
Jan 17, 2007 05:29 pm got my behringer mixer... and MAGIX audio studio. id beable to multi track in... but all i have is USB and a mic jack in.
Jan 17, 2007 05:32 pm If you're doing a lot of quick, double bass work, then yes, damper the kick drum. Maybe even go with a dampened kick head like an Aquarian Superkick, on both sides (batter and resonant).
Something I used to do back in my "Angle of Death" , feet of fury days, was tape quarters to the backside of the kick heads, right where the mallet hits, with a good bit of duct/gaffer tape holding them in place. That will give you more of the high end click, or attack, that's prominent in double bass recordings. (A trick I learned from Vinnie Paul of Pantera.) :)
Jan 17, 2007 05:35 pm oh yeah? so tape a quarter to the inside of the kick drum... where the beater hits it???
Jan 17, 2007 05:35 pm Quote:
Something I used to do back in my "Angle of Death" , feet of fury days, was tape quarters to the backside of the kick heads
w00t, I am not the only person on the forum that speaks of that method finally!
I feel suddenly vindicated.
Jan 17, 2007 05:41 pm i just might have to try this
Jan 17, 2007 05:43 pm I want to address something here that nobody seems to be addressing: you're recording in mono, into a headphone jack in your soundcard. The first thing you should be doing is using the stereo line-in if you have one, or getting a soundcard with a stereo line-in at least. Mono = one channel, every CD you've ever heard = stereo with a right and left channel. If both ears are hearing exactly the same thing, it's gonna sound kinda like AM radio no matter what you do, especially with some random soundcard's headphone in!
Jan 17, 2007 05:45 pm no i bring it in thru the USB... it is stereo.
Jan 17, 2007 05:58 pm Ohhh ok, I thought you meant you had unused USB ports and a mic in. Actually, I've got an idea! If you mixer can do it, have the bass drum mic go through the mixer into the mic in and onto it's own track, and the overheads through the USB stereo interface onto their own track/s. That way, you can eq the bass drum separately!
Jan 17, 2007 08:03 pm yeah i thought about that.... good idea!!!!
Jan 18, 2007 05:26 am is there a way to record multi trakcs in thru a USB? i have magix audio studio... theres an option to turn busses on, but im not sure how to get more tracks in at once
Jan 18, 2007 08:17 am Umm... I thought you were recording two tracks through the USB already? Stereo = two tracks! If you mean like 8 tracks, you'll need some sort of mixer with USB capability. This isn't necessarily the best option though (especially considering you've already purchased the mixer). You'll need a new soundcard with more than stereo in to record more than two tracks at once.
For instance, this:
www.m-audio.com/products/...e2496-main.html
Would be great for 4 tracks at once, or you could get what I have:
www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010-main.html
Which lets you do 8 tracks of analog at once! Great for drums, but kinda spendy :p
Jan 18, 2007 08:19 am Anything that lets you record more than 4 tracks at once will be spendy...
Jan 18, 2007 12:34 pm Instead of using the ghetto quarter trick, you might want to try an Gibraltar Impact pad, which will add a click that's similar to a kitchen tile. A kitchen tile might not be such a bad, ghetto idea.
www.musiciansfriend.com/p...-Pad?sku=445980
For an even crazier click you might want to try a Danmar Metal kick. I used these faithfully during my death metal years, that is before I found the ultimate solution: Drum triggers! But seriously, for screaming double bass, these don't rebound as well, but they sound really awesome! You have to at least try these, they are really fun to hear. By the way, they are literally made from an 1/8 inch piece of metal.
www.musiciansfriend.com/p...-Pad?sku=445579
Jan 18, 2007 12:41 pm nuthin ghetto about it, it works, it works well, and it only costs 25 cents :-)
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 18, 2007 02:27 pm Now that's my kind of price tag!!
Jan 18, 2007 04:43 pm I was going to try the Gibralter pads once, but by then I was using a double pedal and worried about the "fit-up" with the mallets so close to each other.
Jan 18, 2007 07:36 pm it is a mixer with USB capacity... but it runs it all into the computer as one track, stereo.
i will try that quarter trick tho
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jan 19, 2007 01:21 am Great advice all around. No real substitute for a good couple of kick mics.
Also watch the allignment in time between the attack of the bass (guitar) and kick. They will ride the same freq range and really muddy up in a heart beat if they are not alligned tight.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 19, 2007 01:24 am I'm jonesin for a D4.
Jan 19, 2007 01:33 am unclemole, if you want to try the "quarter trick", I recommend you scroll up and look at the 3rd and 4th posts in this thread before you do.
Jan 19, 2007 07:15 am Walt- im not sure what you mean by alignment...
and Herb, thanks for brining that to my attention. my drummer actually has a plastic beater. ill try putting the kick closer and taping a quarter inside. i dont think hell be into the leather piece tho.
so by deadening... more pillows???
Jan 19, 2007 12:49 pm You can try Remo Muff'ls to dampen the sound a bit. What's cool is that Muff'ls strictly dampen the drum head without taking the tone out of the drums, like a pillow would.
Another cool thing about Muff'ls is that you can lessen the dampening by slowly removing the foam ring from the plastic tray, inch by inch until you've reached that sound you're looking for.
www.themusicfarm.com/prod...roducts_id=1098
Jan 19, 2007 12:50 pm I think you might regret getting a D4. I got one in 1998 & I felt the sounds were dated back then. I can't imagine what it would be like now. I upgraded to the D5 after that and I used it for about 3 years. Nice, non-retro sounding, clear sounds...and it doesn't cost that much more.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 19, 2007 03:15 pm Yeah, I got that one. Too clicky for what I do, but I keep it around in case I need to record some metal.
Jan 19, 2007 08:33 pm What's a D4?
Also someone said I need to watch the allignment between the kick and the bass guitar? what exactly do you mean?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 19, 2007 09:48 pm I think maybe trips is referring to an Alesis drum module? I own a DM5 and a Roland TD6 as well. Both pretty well rounded for drum synths. But the Alesis is a much bigger sound then the Roland and easier to tweak and set up.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Jan 19, 2007 11:03 pm Nope, sorry guys, Audix D4. A great floor tom/kick mic from everything I read. Supposedly provides a more natural tone compared to the D6.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Jan 22, 2007 01:26 am Unclemole,
Simply the timing between the leading edge of the kick drum waveform and the primary spike of the bass guitar waveform when they are intended to occur at the same moment. You can gain a lot of overall punch to those moements with real tight time allignment.
I had the opportunity of hearing a Shure M91 live at a concert. Mainard Ferguson's drummer was using one.
WoW!
