Recorderman Drum Mic'ing Technique

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www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member Since: Feb 07, 2005

I came across this technique on another site. I've heard a bit about it before but I still haven't tried it. I will be messing with it tomorrow. For those of you that don't know WTF I'm talking about, here is a link to a setup video.

sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4

Even after viewing the video, I still don't really understand the string and drumstick measurement that he talks about.

Are any of you using this technique?

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Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jul 19, 2006 12:11 pm

the string and drumstick keep the overhead mics the exact same distance from the snare (or kick)...this gaurentees perfect phase for your snare (more powerfull sound).....i can't watch the video here at work.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 12:32 pm

Thanks WYD, I get it now. I knew that it was a way of getting the distance correct but the video was throwing me off. I couldn't understand why you couldn't just use the drumsticks to measure both mics.

I'm not sure how to keep the one mic out of the way of the crash cymbal though. It seems like 2 drumstick lengths away from the snare will place it right in the way of the crash but I will see for sure when I set it up like this tonight.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jul 19, 2006 12:41 pm

yeah, i've found two to be a bit short...i go three.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 01:07 pm

Is the basic intent just to keep the distances the same then? 3 sticks away would get it out of the way for sure.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jul 19, 2006 01:32 pm

yeah, it's not really about 'the ideal distance' it's just to minimize phase issues....

JR Productions
Member
Since: Mar 03, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 02:17 pm

Hey beerhunter I thought I'd just chime in a little here because I just tried this the other day.

As soon as I compared between the recorder man and the typical spaced pair I found a huge difference. The toms had so much more depth and energy, yet the cymbals still were powerfull and crisp while not overpowering everything. While previously having to use tom mics I can now skip out on them which frees up a few more channels on my inputs. The snare also sounds much better now; a lot fatter with just a little close mic snare in the mix.

The only thing that lacked was the kick drum and mostly because I was using SDCs and the kick wasn't tuned perfect.

Anyway give it a shot and let us know how it went for you.

Josh

Oh one more thing, the recorderman technique is especially good for not so good sounding rooms.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 02:44 pm

Hey Josh,

This is very encouraging. My room is not the best that is for sure. It is ok but.. well... its gotta do if you know what I mean.

It would be a real bonus to free up some mics from my toms. Like you say free'd up inputs is always a bonus. Not to mention less tax on my PC. I'll probably experiement with new placements of the tom mics and see how that goes. Maybe throw a couple of mics at the kick. I'll try just about anything once or twice.

I'm using a speaker as my kick mic now and I have been getting pretty good results with it. I'm having a ***** of a time trying to gate it though.

I think this should work out well. That is as good as a Pearl Export kit can sound - lol


JR Productions
Member
Since: Mar 03, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 04:16 pm


"I think this should work out well. That is as good as a Pearl Export kit can sound - lol"

Haha at least you don't have a 75$ nameless kit from sears like my friend does.

About your kick mic problem...try building a tunnel out of chairs and sleeping bags or heavy blankets. It should help to keep out some of the cymbals and other stuff.

Heres a link with step by step directions and a picture of the recorderman technique.

www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=76502



Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jul 19, 2006 08:56 pm

To use that technique you need to use SDC's, not LDC's they are a completely differant animal in a set up like that. (edit)Although on a bigger kit the LDC might wokr out better now that I think of it.(edit)

And I should mention as well this set up does as WYD stated not work well for getting a good power kick sound. And if your kit is any bigger then the one shown, it doestn work nearly as well. Especially when you consider adding 2 more pieces of brass to the kit. IF not used carefully you will end up with sonic mush.

I recomend still close micing the snare and kick if you intend to get a powerfull sounding kit.

The technique does indeed work on a small tight kit, but not on a huge rock kit like say a double kick with a big load of toms. In those cases I stick to the 3:1 rule.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 19, 2006 11:29 pm

I've got omnidirectional and cardioid capsules for my pencil condensers. Which set would be better for this configuration?

I'm doin the recorderman thing and using the above pencil mics. I also have a SM57 knockoff top and bottom of the snare. I'm using the speaker trick as a kick mic. With this configuration I have one pre left. I also have a LDC but the question is, where do I put it? Should I just use it as a room mic or is there a better place for it?

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jul 20, 2006 12:11 am

if ya go omni, the room will be more present...(think old school hip hop live kit loops), use cardioid if your room isn't soundin' good. *try both if ya got time, one time and you'll know what do to every other time*

if the speaker is your only kick mic, and the overheads are your only tom mics, i'd be tempted to lower the overheads to about shoulder hight and back locked witht the kick *for snap*....or remove the front head and try to get the speaker real close to the front head *i'd do this*...move it in and out and keep a blanket wrapped around it for stability....you'll loose a lotta 'drum tone' but if the goal is to get peoples speakers to jump (hit), i bet you can do it with this setup...use your extra pre here or on your room mic....

ah, room mic.....have someone play the kit, and spend some time walking around the room....schtick your head in corners and cover the ear closest to the kit (it's gonna be mono reverb)....open the door and walk into the house....close the door (even crack it a bit to get more 'direct' sound...heh


have fun wit it man!

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jul 21, 2006 07:40 am

Hey man, I wouldn't worry about using LDC's instead of SDC's...I've had better success sometimes with the LDC's depending on the song. The LDC's will give you "larger than life" but more natural tones...very Bonham like. The SDC's will just give you a tighter sound so it depends on what you are after. Sometimes I use both taped together with their capsules aligned and mix in both to taste, now thats control!

If I were you and I could only have one kick mic, it wouldn't be a speaker...although I love the speaker mic, I would reach for something more broadband than that for a "sole" kick mic. My favourite kick mic right now is the Apex 210 ribbon mic...cost you about $250 canadian and sounds wickedly good. SO fat and creamy, very good for digital medium cause it sounds sooo analog. Fat is all I can say, and it picks up more than enough sub freq's that I end up canning the speaker mic track anyway, the low end of the ribbon just sounds way more natural and organic in my opinion. I beleive there are a lot of companies releasing these ribbon mics, same mics, different brand name...T Bone comes to mind as well as Shiny box although the Shiny Box ones have mods done to them...CHECK THEM OUT FOR KICK!!!

edit: Please put a pop filter in front of that bi@tch cause you'll reck the ribbon without it!

Word.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 21, 2006 10:07 am

Heya af_analog,

My mic collection is severely limited. I've tried all my mics on the kick and I have found that I get the best results from using the speaker mic. I am using a 2-Way Pioneer center speaker from an older 5.1 system. The speaker is very heavy due to the steel casing. It seems to be the only mic (speaker) that I have that can handle the high SPL's and capture the lower frequencies.

Unfortunately my next few purchases will not be mics. I still need to get a power amp and monitors (both stage and studio). I am interested in the Apex ribbon mic though. I have a Apex 435 and 2 Apex 180's and I really like them. I also had an Apex wireless mic. I find that Apex products are generally quite good and always priced right. Thanks for the tip, I'll check out the ribbon mic next time I'm in the candy shop.

Anyways, I got a pretty good take of the drums last night and I will bounce an MP3 of it sometime this weekend and post it. I think it is a pretty good sound given what I have to work with.

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jul 21, 2006 10:18 am

Another cool point about the Apex ribbons...

Out of ALL the companies marketing this "same" mic...Apex is the ONLY one who has a warranty for broken/damaged ribbons...two years through Long & Mcquade I believe, which is ridiculously good...

If you know ribbon mics, they are ULTRA sensitive and can be dameged VERY easily so to have a two year replacement warranty on a $250 ribbon mic is insane. Good deals.

If the speaker is working for you thats all that matters...when you find something that works, stick with it cause we all know sometimes it takes a long time to find what works.

CHEERZ

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 21, 2006 10:36 am

Do you find the ribbon mic to be versatile? What else are you using it on?

Also, where you at? Are you on the West Coast? Anyways, i'm in Surrey and we have a really large Long and McQuade just a few blocks away.

I think Apex is a Canadian company (although their mics are probably made in China). For some reason a lot of my stuff is made in Canada (Traynor, Yorkville and Apex).

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jul 21, 2006 12:57 pm

I am actaully in the Toronto area...

I use that Apex Ribbon on anything...it's a really great ribbon mic, regardless of price. I mean a ribbon mic is a ribbon mic, they all have different characters but they all have a lot in common and I like em.

I've said this before, it's not a Royer or an AEA but it's still a ribbon, gots the same ribbon character.

I LOVE it on any type of guitar, especially electric but come to think of it I got one of the BEST acoustic sounds using that mic with a Josephson C42 with a M/S setup...beautiful sounds man!

Kick drum (with a pop screen of course!), overhead, killer vocal mic for certain songs as its a darker creamier flavour...but this mic still has a great top end, very crisp yet smooth, hard to describe.

I've used it as a room mic, nuke with a comp and then trigger with snare...wow, talk about a shotgun snare sound.

Great mic, I can't recommend it enough, especially since you don't have to worry about ruining it...free replacemnts for 2 years...

CHEERZ

Member
Since: Aug 10, 2006


Aug 10, 2006 10:54 pm

Hi guys,
This is the Colin, the guy narrating the video.

I wanted to include a few things that I didn't have a chance to address in the video.

The "2.5 stick" thing is just a distance to that should *roughly* get your overheads pretty in phase with the snare. This distance is really critical for getting things sounding good. I always check how the toms are phasing against the overheads, too, and tweak as needed.

Mics that work well for this set up tend to be mics that do NOT have a "hyped" top end. So, with KM184s, things can get harsh, for example, but with KM84s you'll be smiling. I like ribbons (depending on how tight their polar pattern is) for this array and well as "mellower" LDCs.

On the cheap, you can get the excellent Electro Voice BK1 for this. This is a discontinued hand held stage condenser with a nice fat tranny in it. They can be find for as low as $25 per mic and they truly excel in a recorderman setup.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Aug 11, 2006 06:25 pm

Hey there, welcome to HRC and many thanx for the added info.

Noize

Member
Since: Aug 10, 2006


Aug 11, 2006 06:39 pm

Thanks for the welcome. =)

I also forgot to add that it is worth adjusting where the "shoulder" mic aims. I generally aim the "snare" one directly at the middle of the snare, but, sometimes, you need to aim the shoulder one more towards the floor tom. This can help center the bass drum a bit more, too.

There are two drawbacks to this array, that I have found. One is that sometimes the cymbals can get a little phasey. In most instances, this isn't noticeable, but for certain genres, such as jazz, this can be a deal breaker. The other problem is that many "less experienced" drummers like to raise their arms really high and will be beating the crap out of your nice mics (this is where I decide between the $25 BK1s and the $5000 AKG C12s!)

Again, hope this helps...back to mixing for me...

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Aug 12, 2006 01:17 am

rock! way cool of ya to stop buy!

thanks

wyd

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002


Aug 13, 2006 10:05 am

I just wanna note for everyone, that i went and tried this technique out, andits a MIRACLE! 4 mics getting everything i need in a way i didnt think possible at all. I have a mic on teh sanre adn on the kik as well. The kik is the only mic tha tneeds alot of work (we put a blanket over ours to give it a nice punchy sound) and the two overheads pick up the cymbals at just the right amount, and the toms really BOOM. Just wanna say thanx for tellin me about it its amazing.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Aug 15, 2006 12:04 pm

Tried it last night. Wow, I left all mics on but experimented with muting certain ones. Even just running my kick mic and two OH's I pulled off a track that had workable snare, toms, hats everything!! This is a great technique.

Side note, I pointed both at the snare and am going to try pointing the shoulder at the floor tom tonight.

Oversexed Lord of the Dance
Member
Since: May 30, 2008


Jun 10, 2008 05:15 pm

I don't know what's up with the link above, but the video doesn't seem to be there anymore. I found a YouTube video that seems to get the point across, though:





Haven't tried it yet, but this technique sounds pretty sweet. Maybe now I can finally record drums properly on my 8-track with only 2 inputs!


www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 10, 2008 07:04 pm

I will post a click of a recordign I just did using 1 ribbon mic. I just copied the track and nudged it a couple of milleseconds and I think you will be quite surprised at the results. More mic's doesn't mean better a drum sound.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Jun 13, 2008 02:17 pm

I would like to hear this 1 ribbon mic recording BH, bring it on!! :)

I was looking at a pair of the ribbon mics from Karma (K-6) because I don't own any and at $400 I think they would be awesome OH's for the more natural sounding kit. I will probably still use my SDC's for the heavier bands though.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 13, 2008 02:28 pm

oh crap... I forgot to post it. No worries, I've made a note and I will post it tonight PST time.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 13, 2008 08:41 pm

OK, I uploaded two tracks.

The first one is called Ribbon drums and the first 30 seconds is 1 mic placed about 6 feet in front of the kit. After 30 seconds, two other tracks kick in. The are the same single track panned hard left and right and nudged just a bit. I know they are not great... I just wanted to show what could be done with one mic and so you could hear a ribbon at work.

The second track (TWNC drums) is what I am using for drums on this song. I will post the mics used later if you are interested.

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Jun 14, 2008 02:17 pm

Well I must say, they sound fantastic. Might as well tell me what mic your using so I can want it but never have it :)

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 14, 2008 03:20 pm

Its a cheap mic really... well as far as ribbons go. I paid $90 used for it but new it about $160.

I must admit though.... a lot is the room. Ribbons have a figure 8 pattern so the room plays a big part.


http://www.8thstreet.com/images/apex.210.jpg



As for the other mics we used

Kick - AKG D112
Snare top and bottom - Shure SM57
Toms - Audix D2
Spaced pair - AKG 451
Room mics - Audio Technica AT4033
mono room - APEX 210 ribbon

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