the new digital vs. analog discussion
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Posted on May 23, 2002 01:43 am
CWpierce
Member Since: May 23, 2002
well, i was looking at the old "digital vs. analog" discussion, and i wanted to say that i thought the website links to the songs done on the 4 track were really crappy songs to begin with. next, if you are on this website, you like recording. if you like recording, you like capturing the sound in unique ways by using different methods and putting them together to make a song. Now i feel that the "analog man" was a little too analog happy. because, i agree, lo-fi is a cool sound, i even used a 4 track tape recorder to record my current band. I think for a demo its cool. But we have to agree, digital or professional analog machines give clarity to instruments making the song more ear sensitive. and by the way, i can tell a big difference between a 4 track tape recorder, and a professional recording, and neither is better. they are all good. have an open mind bud.
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MSHARCMember
Since: Apr 05, 2002
May 23, 2002 02:01 am There are some really good analog recorders and I like the "lo-fi" sound as one type of medium, but I think that you can get that sound from a digital environment and still have the ease and flexibility of a digital multitracker. I have limited experience in using analog, but the ones I have had are a pain in the butt to be honest. Its so much easier to got back and fix mistakes in a digital environemt and I think you get a more accurate sound than from most tapes. Personal opinion of course.
Marc (da Sharc)
May 23, 2002 05:45 am Quote from CWpierce:
if you are on this website, you like recording. if you like recording, you like capturing the sound in unique ways by using different methods and putting them together to make a song
Not necessarily true...if you are on this website, you do like recording (presumably), but not necessarily in unique ways or by using different methods, that, my friend, is an assumption on your part. Some people are stuck in their ways and just trying to figure out how to get the best sound possible inside that framework. Somepeople are just trying to learn to slap a sound on tape or hard disk. Not everyone is investigating new and cool way to do it...know what I mean?
The old thread went out the door with the old site, it was a victim of manditory upgrading for the over-all good, but I think it was worth the price.
Anyway, yes, I am a digital guy, and most analog guys are stuck there because they have opinions formed from 10-15 years ago when digital was still kinda making it's way and haven't listened to it since. Not all, but many I think. Those same people also use Netscape for no other reason than that they hate Microsoft...even though it is an inferior product :-)
By the way, when I wanna lo-fi sound, I record it digitally and apply the "Grungilizer" plugin to it...that's how digitized my mind is...hehehe
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 23, 2002 10:01 am Oue..oue...oue! This is just tooo tempting...sorry. hehehe
And in this corner!
I have heard some bad donkey analog equipment out there! One piece quite frankly is my mixer. Definately 10x cleaner than anything I can pipe into it. No signal loss there! And there are tape machines made that are clean clear crisp and if you know how to keep your dynamics in check they sound real good. Problem for me is that even Billy Bob Microslop would wince at the cost! Yup Yup I am in the digital camp for the recording itself for sure! And once recorded I like to keep it that way! Every form of imprinting has its loss! Just like people. As you create new generations of a recording be it analog or digital the shortcomings get more noticable.
Couldn't resist!
May 23, 2002 10:24 am Oh, you are right on one count, if I had thousands to spend and all the space I need, I would have much more analog gear, but for the home project studio type thing, digital is the way to go! And, whether analog folks can admit it or not, digital recording, playback, editing and production has moved light-years ahead of where it was a few years ago.
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
May 23, 2002 12:29 pm Analog gear is becoming obsolete.
Yes, a lot of it sounds really good, but almost all the sounds you can get from an analog source you can also get from a digital plug in. In general Digital is smoother, cheaper, and easier to edit then analog, and it also has a lot more possibility when it comes to the things you can do to it. Click, Record, Cut, Drag, Paste, Copy, Save.... It's so simple now with digital
May 23, 2002 12:33 pm I think that is exactly some people problem with it...it is so easy it makes some folks feel it's phony and doesn't take the same talent. I know that's what I have heard some so-called "purists" say...in my mind it is all ignorance and an unwillingness to expand your mind, or the feeling they have "sold out" which is a phrase I am really sick of hearing...
I have found it give myself and others the ability to bring their music to a whole new level, which is always good.
Bottom line it still takes the talent to write the music, if you find easier ways to get it recorded, that's just plain smart, hardly "selling out" (argh, I used it again!)
MSHARCMember
Since: Apr 05, 2002
May 23, 2002 12:51 pm You really touched a nerve with me on the "selling out" thing. I am also quite tired of people who would say that you sold out, or that what you are doing isn't real becuase it was recorded on a computer. I know a guy, and I wish I didnt, that plays bass and guitar and he is a total dead head. (Iam sorry, but he is half the reason I don't listen to more dead). ANyways, he's talking about the "sound" that you get from analog and tape and how anything else is faking it or selling out. Would not even listen to the possibility that he could be wrong about something that he doesn't even use. Its like he thought that recording difitally had the magic suck button which was somehow turned off for those using digital(I think anyone who has played live has heard of the mythical "suck" button). I personally think the other way, while it is easier to fix mistakes, what is captured is usually more accurate and therefore mistakes are more glaring. This same person, who I know does not speak for all analog equipment users, basically just believed that using something 20 years old MUST be better. I think you hit it on the head dB, "if you find easier ways to get it recorded, that's just plain smart." I agree totally, take advantage of everything you can. If a drug came on the market that cured cancer, wouold those same people not use it because the scientists who made it used a computer to help create it?
Marc (da Sharc)
May 23, 2002 01:46 pm I have a dead logo tattoo, but I still use a PC :-) uneducated people tend to think that the PC actually writes and records the music for you...little do they know we sweat the same as them...
Glad I hit a nerve with someone, that selling out crap ticks me off, people said Metallica "sold out" just because James Hetfield finally grew up and started seeing the art in production and improved it.
You aren't a sellout just because your recording don't sound like they are garage tapes...even if they are :-)
May 23, 2002 03:22 pm In my opinion, and with my limited expertise it probably doesn't mean much, I feel that people hear analog stuff and digital and they say analog is "warmer". I hear that a lot, or digital sounds too "clean!" My guess is that the quality of digital is better, that's why the "clean" sound, but analog has a very distinct sound and I think people have such an affinity for that particular analog sound is because that's the sound that most great records they grew up listening to have and I think subconciously people associate that sound with being better quality instead of different quality.
May 23, 2002 03:39 pm The really funny thing is that the "warmth" people are always referring to is actually noise from the signal path through the electroncs and tubes in these components...
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 23, 2002 10:09 pm Ok, so I like to hear myself babble!
I am personally happier than stink about the battle between analog and digital. Digital has come light years over the recent past. This has forced analog developers to keep analog gear in the running. Analog has also come light years over the recent past. I can get a condenser mic for 1.5 bucks that knocks my socks off. My mixer is an analog dream and much cheaper than in the past. My digital recorder and mixer editor give me results I could not have dreamed of till recent for very little money!
Yea, I say onto you....keep the battle going! I digs it...I digs it!
May 23, 2002 11:35 pm well, i never really expected anyone to read my post, but i really honestly wasn't trying to start a fight or be a jerk to anyone. But someone was saying that the people that love recording aren't looking for interesting ways to record the sounds and put them together for a song, they said, they are trying to make the best recording with what they had, basically. But i believe thats the same thing...because all i've recorded on is a Tascam 788 digital 8 track. It's not professional, but i've learned tons techniques for recording different sounds in different ways, just by being limited to what i have. I love recording, and i am an instant friend to anyone who has the same passion. But you can't tell me that someone loves recording, just because their band wants to make a demo, so they buy gear and slop it all onto a tape or hard disk, it turns out crappy, so they blame it on the "restrictions" that were holding them back. I just think there is more to sound recording than having the gear. It's a love and passion. (cue the ending music)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 24, 2002 12:13 am OK, CW, the battle is really not a battle. It is the reason this site exist's. We and everyone here who participates, share our view's with anyone and everyone who comes here. I myself was a die-hard analog guy, My first home studio had an honest to goodness 2" tape machine in the closet, and they are not small by any mean's. It took a few year's but I finally was convinced to at least try going digital. I did and have not looked back EVER! I found that what used to take me week's, could now be done in much less time. I also found that with digital, I could now link everything together (midi and audio) with perfect timing and not have a ton of gear trying to tie it all together. And praying that it all talked to each other and didn't loose count of were it was. As far as the digital being to clean debate, dB will tell you, I can make anything sound dirty or warm or fuzzy or whatever level of analog sound you want, with the click of a mouse button. You can also warm it up B4 it hit's the PC by using a tube Pre or other form of saturation or gain emulation. Experimenting is much easier ow in the digital realm also, never be afraid of trying something new. If it is really crappy, you just hit delete, or lay another track over it and try mixing it up till it is good. I still use a ton of outboard analog gear, and mixer's even though I could do it all in the box, I don't. so you see there is a line somewhere out there that you can jump back and forth across, and live in both world's if you want to. But I will never again part with the ease and flat out endless possability's of digital.
May the Noize B with U
May 24, 2002 06:59 am CW, I never thought you were being a jerk or trying to start a fight, I never took it that way at all...I was just trying to clear up what I thought (and still do) think was an assumption of your part, people here do like recording, we can assume either that they do, or they have way to much time on their hands, so they hang out here for some reason :-) That much we know, but as far as the capturing sound in unique ways and such, that is not necessarily true, that is the only point I was trying to make. No harm done, no argument started (it's pretty hard to tick someone off around here, we are all pretty mellow...usually) what you did start, however, is a great thread of people blowing steam and spouting opinions...and that is how we all learn, and that's cool! So thank you!
On another note, I gotta go with Noize on this one...you can dirty stuff up and warm things up really well and then put it on the hard drvie, then the alleged digital "sterileness" is really untrue...
May 24, 2002 09:20 pm Well I don't appriciate the personal attacks, and for the record I don't give a rats *** what you think of my music or my methods because it's what suits me, which is the reason I'm into music in the first place. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ***.
May 24, 2002 09:27 pm Well perhaps had I read the rest of the thread instead of getting all hot-headed, I might not have been such an *** just there. Although I still don't see the reasoning behind attacking the quality of my band's music. After all, this isn't songwriters central.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 25, 2002 12:05 am EEEE-Gaddd!
Did someone fart without me smelling it?
Been obsessing on this topic. I guess because I am interested in sound. Next year I'll run for office. I have come to the conclusion that what we hear is heavly fintered in the brain. Change is often not well accepted. I have listened to recordings on many media. Take the electronic processing out of the music performance i.e. accustic performance; digital has revealed the most true to life recordings I have ever heard. I hear exactly what I heard while I was playing with the band. As far as tube vs solid state amplification of analog signals prior to being digitized, that's a matter of taste and audio being recorded.
Cruel orb that rules the night
Takes the colours from our site
black is grey and grey is white
and we decide which is right
and which is an illusion
MB
May 25, 2002 07:31 am Quote:
Well I don't appriciate the personal attacks, and for the record I don't give a rats *** what you think of my music or my methods
where are these "personal attacks"? I read this thread a couple times just now and saw no personal attacks on you...the closest I saw was some generalizations about people that hate digital, not people that prefer analog, but people that beat on digital, if you feel targetted by that generalization, well, not much anyone can do about that, but in my experience it stands true for me with the people I have known.
Myself, I have no intention of trying to attack anyone, and if anyone else here does directly attack anyone, they would be kicked out very hastily. So I suggest you maybe chill out a little bit...everyone gets a little defensive when their opinions/methods/beliefs are being questioned but everybody has the right to feel however they want and the right to express it. This time your personal belief is just very much in the minority, and looking forward, probably always will be. Not that your opinion is wrong, I never said either way wrong it's just that most of us here prefer the digital domain and get very high quality recordings doing it.
I personally can make better recordings digitally than I can analog, so that is what I use, if analog works better for you, than use it, but don't sit and tell us that we are wrong either, than, by your standards, that would be an attack on us...see how that works... :-)
Bottom line in this whole debate is just what you said earlier, if it works best for you great, but you must understand you are in the minority.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 25, 2002 11:12 am Walt, that is one nice ending. I have qouted that little piece more time's in my life than I care to discuss. It says a lot with very little, as most of their verbage did back then. Justin Hayward was and still is a genious. for those of you who don't know MB are the MOODY BLUES. They have been around forever, Just thought I'd throw that in.
And not to be picky, but the orb
"removes the colour form our site
red is gray, and yellow white"
I think my favorite for raw power was the intro to Ride My SeeSaw.
May 25, 2002 12:48 pm Allow me to explain. The "personal attack" I was refering to would be this:
i wanted to say that i thought the website links to the songs done on the 4 track were really crappy songs to begin with.
I (as well as the rest of my band) put a lot of work into those songs, and I take that very personally because those songs were written purely for self expression. Although not radio friendly, I happen to think those songs are quite good. I also don't feel that ANYONE here has the right to tell someone else their song sucks. I'll defend anyone's right to make "bad" or "crappy" music to the death. Like I said before, I don't care if you like it or not, but if you don't have anything nice to say...
Now this just plain pissed me off:
Now i feel that the "analog man" was a little too analog happy. because, i agree, lo-fi is a cool sound, i even used a 4 track tape recorder to record my current band. I think for a demo its cool. But we have to agree, digital or professional analog machines give clarity to instruments making the song more ear sensitive. and by the way, i can tell a big difference between a 4 track tape recorder, and a professional recording, and neither is better. they are all good. have an open mind bud
Especially the open mind thing. That really hit a nerve. I think Mr. CW ought to have an open mind to other people's "crappy" music.
May 25, 2002 01:19 pm Oh, OK, now that I can understand you anger, anyone hear saying your stuff sucks is lame, I would be irked too...saying something as "constructive critism" is one thing, but the blatant insults is pretty lame. Especially since we all know how much work goes into making a recording regardless of format used.
I would be ticked off too.
May 25, 2002 02:59 pm I have been thinking about this for a while, and I am bothered that someone feels so insulted at this website...it really bugs me...so for starters, I am officially putting everyone on notice that, even tho it is also mentioned in the rules, that any blatant insults will not be tolerated, constructive, productive critism will, as that is why most of you post your music in the first place, to get critiques.
Secondly, there has been the statement thrown around that is something like "good enuf for demo purposes". Well, I dunno what the music scene is in your different areas, but in Minneapolis, the scene I am familiar with, if your demo is not on CD, it pretty much gets tossed in the trash with all the other cassette demos, and if it is on CD you get about 60 seconds of the persons time to impress them, so the demo better be the best representation of your music that you can possibly create.
Of course, this only applies to the venues that you have any remote chance of having anyone "discover you", or you have a chance to really build you fan base because the room is large or has a good reputation for good music. Many dive club and crap don't even care if you play well, as long as you bring people in the bar, so those rules don't apply to those places, but then, I don't care to play those places anymore.
So I personally object to the "good enuf for a demo" frame of mind.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 25, 2002 07:55 pm Dispite my better judgement, I find myself writing again. This is so tough to sort out. I agree that anything beyond constructive critism is something no one needs. And it is unfortunate (in my humble opinion) that chiche's like "crappy" and "suck" have evolved over time. They are incredibly vague and to a great degree usless in the english language, but I guess they are "cool" what ever our colective consious thinks "cool" is at this moment.
As far as the good enough for demo, from your perspective dB I fully understand your comment. I do however have a friend who plays bass in northern Michigan who could not paun off a CD for a "demo" to a bar for a perspective gig for his life. Those places still do exist. Mater of perspective I guess. Not personally knowing the folks involved in the conversational conflict, I surely can't tell who means or preceives what or how. I will say having worked with folks like myself that most of us are like M & M's. Hard on the outside and soft on the inside. This makes for some volitile situations when it comes to quick relitively inocent comments.
My humble opinion.
By the way Noise, thank you...the mind goes first! Yes genious at least. One of the few that I can listen to every once in a while and with accumulated wisdom hear a new level of depth every time!
Two notes of the chord
That's our forescope
But to know the chord
Is our life's hope
....
And to name the chord is important to some
So they gave it a name and call it Aum
Hope that's a little closer this time.
May 26, 2002 08:44 am Yes, if people just say something "sucks" with no further insight, I generally don't accept the opinion...it always riminds me of some inexperienced high-school kid that says "Peavey Sucks" just because he heard that from someone, but when you ask why there is no real answer after that...therefore the opinion is worthless. The kid just wanted to sound smart...and anyone with any basic communication skills sees him as actually the opposite.
Quote:
I do however have a friend who plays bass in northern Michigan who could not paun off a CD for a "demo" to a bar for a perspective gig for his life. Those places still do exist.
Whoa, where are you from? I find that very interesting...did he try to give it to "Bob" from "Bob's Country Bunker" or what?
hehehehe
Whatch out for the chicken wire covered stages :-)
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
May 26, 2002 11:01 am Oh dB, you are a little too intuitive!
Yes, I am from another planet! HS graduating class of oh around 30. The chicken wire part is about right. In those areas you rank towns by the number of churches and bars they have. Don't got no stop lights. I have long ago moved. Too many kids got hard to feed. Those who stayed play the bars who compete for the native crowd which could probably fill one of the bars to capicity. I suppose in reality they could get a cd played, but no one has that kind of money to produce one and they would suffer from a "rich snob" perception if they could. The box you have to fit in is different there.
May 26, 2002 01:20 pm Ah, well, that explains a lot, so many of these small town bars are different than the bars I was talking about anyway, the bars I was references in the "it's good enuf for a demo" rant were, as I said, bars that you may be heard by somebody that can make a career...most of the little "down home" bars there is a little opportunity of "being discovered", so yes, I am sure they operate completely differently.
That said, I am no way ripping on those bars, or small towns, as gigs are gigs and playing is fun, regardless of where you are. Don't want to offend anyone :-)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 26, 2002 03:17 pm Don't make joke's about chicken wire covered stage's. One of the last straight ahead 4 piece rock band's I played with, seemed to alway's get the Fri., Sat. night gig at this whole in the wall biker bar, (and nothing against those place's either, it's just a discription) that was one of the highest paying place's that band ever played. We would end the night with a 15-20 minute jam of either a Doors tune or one of our balls' to the wall blues jam's. And it never failed to inspire at least 3 brawl's. But the best part of it was the owner's alway's looked forward to that because it would draw the crowd's back just to see these fight's break out. And if any of our stuff ever got wrecked, and it did. The owner was alway's more then happy to pay for repair's or replacement.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
May 31, 2002 07:46 am regarding the "good enough for a demo" that does depend on how the industry is in your market.
Over here in Columbus Ohio it's been in a depression for about 3 years. At the dive clubs you're doing well of you get $100 and the only larger venue that bothers to book indie bands is only $500. . . . and thats the christian music scene. The secular one is actually worse off because there's so many bands that are absolutly horrible and we play the same venues. The christian side here is a very tightly knit community and we usually know with in a month if thre's even a new pop punk band of 14 year olds. The next month it's almost certain that they have some sort of recording on CD. In the secular world here in columbus I seen rock bands made up of 25 year olds go for three years and not play a show and still play worse than that two month old pop punk band.
One of the "bigger" studios in columbus, Rome Recording, will ask how many tapes you want and not even mention CD's. And when you ask for a CD they have to dig the burner out of a closet. They were shocked when we told them that we had absolutly no use for tapes.
The bars really don't give a crap about the bands either. I had one place expect us to pay admission to our own show!
May 31, 2002 03:06 pm Quote:
regarding the "good enough for a demo" that does depend on how the industry is in your market.
Very true, which is why I did make the comment "I dunno about the scene in your area...". I live and have worked the Minneapolis music scene, we have some great clubs that DO care about the music that is played there, and, also the dives that don't care as long as you fill the seats.
The "dive" isn't really what I was addressing in my comment (maybe that wasn't clear) because in the big picture it doesn't matter that you play there, because anyone can...and you have no danger of being "discovered"...what I was addressing was the serious clubs that care about their music and have a reputation to uphold for having good music and good bands.
