Old, old school recording advice please.
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Posted on Jun 25, 2006 08:25 am
B.J. Chaplin
Castironbelly
Member Since: Jun 23, 2006
Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and thought I'd ask all you wise and learned beings for some help on a problem I have been having. I'm into writing and recording old folk & delta blues style tunes on my accoustic.
The problem is the digital domain is much too sterile for them to sound atleast half authentic. Analogue is a bit out of my price range at the momment. I usually record a track of old phonograph crackle and Cakewalk tape sim hiss after recording the song, but it still has a little too much clarity.
The sound I'm after is along the lines of John and Alan Lomax's Library of Congress field recordings ie. Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie ect.
I dont realy have much of an idea on the equipment and techniques they used back in the early days of recording, but I'm 100% sure it wasn't on a celeron computer with Sonar. Any advice on mic placement, signal chain and effects would be greatly appreciated.
Oh I'm sure some of you are asking yourself why a white guy from down under, born 80 years too late considers himself a bluesman. Well I may be white and I'm not from the delta. Ive never killed a man in Memphis. But I'm unemployed, have a substance abuse problem, a nagging missus(who wont leave me) and male pattern baldness. (thats enough to give any man the blues).
Thanks B.J
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Jun 25, 2006 09:14 am Hey B.J., welcome to HRC. For the sake of your blues career I hope your wife never leaves you and your hair keeps falling out... :-)
Yeah, analog is a bit pricey, digital is far and away the less expensive option, and more functional and user friendly for many of the functions of editing and such.
Digital does have options that are quite impressive in regaining some of that analog "warmth" (otherwise known as distortion)...Steinberg has an old plugin called "Grungelizer" that adds crackle and such to recording pretty well, and some other company has a plug called "Vinyl" that I have heard good things about. There are also some good warming plugs, one called "Vintage Warmer" from PSP and "Magneto" from Steinberg, I use both often, they saturate quite nicely, especially vintage warmer...
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jun 25, 2006 10:13 am Could you maybe record onto a cheap tape recorder? Anything really normal and basic, and then just feed those trax into sonar to mix, dont use a nice soundcard or anything, maybe after feeding the trax through a bunch of old preamps, tape recorders, and wires. The end result could be closer to what your looking for? And if you use a mic going into say a phonograph recorder that goes straight into your computer, maybe itll pick up on the warmth of that signal.
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jun 25, 2006 12:56 pm Check out Vinyl by Izotope, it's free and very good at achieving period sound, as well as adding scratches, clicks, pops, hum etc.
I'd try using dynamic mic's vs condenser, use a preamp rather than straight to the mic in on the sound card.
www.izotope.com
Dan
jetgloMember
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Jun 25, 2006 12:59 pm many of those recordings were recorded by a device that etched the grooves into some kind of composite wax record.. with a cactus needle. My father had one of these machines many years ago.. like in the 30's as a child.
Those are hard to come by now.. haha.. but I would suggest that you just get a Tascam recorder so that you are recording to tape and have the option of adding tracks for ambience.. if you need the sound of old records, get a trash bag and roll it around in your hands on a track. That will give the illusion of a crackly/hissy recording of vintage feel. Perhaps like Neil Young's recordings with a crackling fire in the background.
So I guess I am saying start with a tape machine, which may be far and above what was available to the mobile archivist of the 30's and 40's.. but have the track options of some trickery to add the noise you need for "authenticity".. just in case you get a great performance but not enough vintage feel.
Barring that you might end up getting a good performance on tape.. play it back through a stereo, add your noisey trash bags on the fly as it plays and record that as your final.
Are you going mono as well? I hope you give a link to your finished product someday.. this is sounding interesting to me.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 25, 2006 03:22 pm Hey BJ another welcome as well.
I like the sefl appointed title as well. I knew instantly you had to be a bluesman from that refering to leadbelly. :-)
There is absolutely nothing to question on being able to play the blues no matter who you are. I have met several who do it very well in the genre and era you are doing, and they certainly are not from that catagory either.
But onto getting the sound you are after. dB is spot on when refering to the pluggins from PSP and Steinberg. Although finding Magneto will be a bit tough these days. But the PSP Vintage Warmer is still one of the best out there, and seeing as how yo are running Sonar 3 you will be a prime candidate for that pluggin. I use it almost every where for turning the digital sound into a nice warm sounding track.
I was very hesitant to jump into digital as well having cut my teeth on analog/tape machines. But I figured if I was going to do it I would spend as much time as I could learning how to recreate the analog sound using digital. And the PC makes it pretty easy with the DSP proseccors we have now.
The PSP Vintage Warmer is probably the best bet for what you are doing as its controls are very similar to its analog counter parts. You have much greater control over the elemants you wish to add for warming up your tracks. It can go from a mild saturation to a very overboard overdriven sound. From mild compressed signal to an absolutelycrushed sound. It is very good at attaining the old school analog gear sound.
I did notice you have an Alto pre amp as well. YEs they are cheap and nasty as you stated. But with some carefull tweaking you could run your mic's through that to get some saturation going as well.
Noize
Jun 25, 2006 08:31 pm i have never heard a 'noize' plugin that i liked....for the sound you want, i'd hafta ask how much money are you willing to spend? with the 'money is no object' budget, i'd go with a ribbon or tube condensor mic or maybe a 451, into a very colored preamp, and heavy compression (while tracking) on something similar to an 1176 to a portastudio type tape deck....then playback the tape into your computer. once digital you're prolly gonna hafta roll off the highs, but i wouldn't automatically go for an eq plug, try a de-esser or multiband compressor and use that to sape the tone some.
give me your budget and i can prolly shave a few grand off the setup mentioned above.
Jun 25, 2006 08:39 pm well, he did mention he is unemployed...
Jun 26, 2006 07:14 am Recording old Blues....
Well have you tried this,
Put a Mic in the center of the room and one close to you,pick a room with Hardwood Floors,remember Leadbelly was in the State Pin when he was recorded,you want the Natural Room Reverb as you are recording,If you have an old tube amp to sing through use that,don't use any kind of compression when recording,when you Eq try and add alittle Hum to it,remember old Eq's got hot and hummed alot,I think you can get that sound you are looking for in the digital world of today.
We just have to work harder at it and use alittle imagination.
Ken Sutton
WaterFall Records.
www.waterfallrecordings.com
www.sweetkenny.com
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jun 26, 2006 08:02 am actuallyfor old style blues the analog machines are quite affordable. As stated earlied Leadbelly was recorded in prison with a "portable" record cutter that weighed over 300lbs... but a number of record cutters are affordable
search.ebay.com/search/se...op=1&fsoo=1
the hard part is finding blank disks :)
jetgloMember
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Jun 26, 2006 11:04 am It just seems that starting with computer is like starting at the top of the mountain just to walk down.
A 4 track tape unit is going to be fairly cheap..maybe a bit over a hundred bucks.. and as a starting point, is already closer to your intended goal..analog and noisy; it would probably just be a matter of adding more noise.. as if you are listening to an old record.. with the leaden drag sound of the needle etc.
I don't do computer recording.. but I agree with "whosyourdaddy".. that is, that the noise plugins I have heard at friends houses just don't sound real..just "hey, isn't that TOOL?"
Jun 26, 2006 11:06 am true, if you really wanna simulate the old stuff, I guess ya gotta get old stuff, grab an old 4 track cassette recorder and an SM57 mic...and have at it.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jun 26, 2006 11:34 am I think an SM57 might be too nice... these were from the 1930's so a carbon mic would be more appropriate.
www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/...t&sku=68381
I mean... these records sound like **** :) All of research in music technology has the goal of removing all of the features people like about thses recordings... noise... distortion... bad acoustics... bleed... narrow frequency response... plus the recording wasn't really musically oriented... it was documentitive... "to gather a body of folklore before it disappeared, and to preserve it for the analysis of later scholars."
jetgloMember
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Jun 26, 2006 12:41 pm I'm definitely more into alt/prog rock, but I really love old bluegrass recordings.. with all the noise,bleed and atmosphere.. artifacts. To me there is just something corny about modern tracked out BG bands that sound so slick and clean (read sterile).. electric bass too detracts from the overall appeal of this great style of music as far as I'm concerned. (okay, I'll get off my analog soapbox)
Jun 28, 2006 01:49 am Hi comrades. Thanks for all the great feedback. I got some great ideas. This is what i've come up with.
On the weekend, I did the rounds of the garage sales and trash,n,treasure markets. For $5.00 I got an old suit case record player. I cleaned it up, removed any bits that rattle or aren't needed anymore and soldered a 1/4 inch socket to the wires connected to needle.
I then put it in the closet with a guitar cable coming from my mixers aux send into the 1/4 inch socket I had soldered on and a shure sm57 plugged into my mixer pointed right up against the record players speaker.
Then I miced my guitar with a shure prologue at the 14th fret and a behringer b1 condenser mic in the middle of the room. (My recording space is brick walls very much like a prison cell) with a built in wooden closet and carpet on the floor.
With the close mic in channel 1 ,the room mic in channel 2 and the record player mic in channel 3 I can fade in as much or as little close mic, room mic and record player mic as I need. And I also control how much of the original signal gets sent through record player using the aux send knob.
I then route the mixers outputs through my tube pre and into the computer.
Then I add some crackle and warp from the vinyl plugin and thats about it. I hope my description doesn't sound too complicated.
And jetglo, yes I am mixing down in mono, I like authenticity and when I can work out how to do it I will post some for your listening enjoyment.
Oh and zekthedeadcow. One mans (sounds like ****) is another mans analogue warmth.
I've got the sound better than I had a week ago so thanks again guys. B.J
Jun 28, 2006 09:48 am heh, good idea there man! i'm curious to hear the record player speaker track...good improv!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 28, 2006 06:42 pm BJ, cant wait to hear what you come up with. If I get a little time in the next few weeks, I will see if I can come up witha combo of FX to use in Sonar 3 that might help simulate the Vintage Warmer or Magneto for you.
Jun 29, 2006 12:26 am This could be interesting. I can't wait to hear it.
