Long Question about setting up a Practice Room
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Posted on Jun 19, 2006 10:55 am
crux
Typo Szar
Member Since: Jul 04, 2002
Hey guys, i think this question will go on pretty long so thanx in advance for even reading it.
I was reading an article over at guitarnut i saw posted here a few days back and it really started to get me thinking about resetting up the equipment in my practice space to optimize sound and actually make it so that we can turn our stuff down and maybe save our ears some wear and tear.
1. i was thinkin of pulling the drums nearer to teh center of the room, placing the amps behind him, mic them and push them through a PA infront of us, and we can all face out as if were playin live. Is this a good idea? i remember reading about how u shold place amps in a room so tehy dont cancel eachother adn stuff. but i was thinkin this way teh drummer could hear everything clearly and the rest of teh band can hear teh "mix" at a moer comfortable level for our ears, adn we could turn down teh amps since we'd mic them.
2. We have one of those powered mixered which i really thinks sux, coz it never is loud enough and its always dying out on us. We have an alesis 24 track which we use for recorfding, but i was wondering if we jsut buy a power amp to put that mixer through the PA would it maybe be better? Im thikni a devoted power amp might work better thant the combo one we have now.
3. Kinda off topic, but with the power amp and such, would we basically have a working live rig? if we got all the mics for the amps and the PA and maybe some rack effects... maybe we wouldnt ahve to keep renting out stage equipment?
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Jun 19, 2006 11:08 am Well, this is sure to touch off some good debate and discussion...it's a good question.
I personally never fell for the "practice like you gig" thing...I have never tried to simulate a stage situation in practice. Many will disagree with me on that, but that's my take. I don't recommend using your PA for anything except instruments that don'thave their own amps, vocals, maybe horns if necessary, etc. I always liked to keep practices at as low of a volume as possible, but, even at it's lowest, it's still loud cuz drums are drums and everybody has to mix with that precedent...
In most bands I was in, depending on the size of the room, we each grabbed a corner, set up our amps all sort of facing the middle (slightly off for the cancellation reasons) and we can practice looking at each other, so we can talk as a group between songs and the like...
Thats my two cents...practice room and stage are two different venues for two different needs, set up each one to best fulfill it's purpose.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 19, 2006 06:29 pm I'll start with the last one crux.
Yep, setting up a dedicated full on rack for PA is a definate plus. Especially if your a louder type rock band. Most powered mixers dont cut it for bigger clubs. some might argue that, but it is a fact. They just dont have the power.
As for the practice set up. I agree with dB on only running what absolutely needs to go through the PA for practice. Although with several bands I was in we did have the luxury of having an actual sond stage to practice on. Which allowed us to run with full gig gear going. That was an advantage for mixing and practicing fades, FX punches and the like. But most of that was with some very heavy keyboard intensive rigs as well. So a bigger PA was a must for us then. It still is for a synth driven band, but for most rock bands it is easier to go as dB stated and set things up to reach the drum level and go from there.
I keep a 1000 watt rig in here with a pair of 15" 2 way large speakers for when I run synth parts and such. Even though my moniter rig will sound great, sometimes I just need to have it feel better then they can give me. Meaning a bit more bottom end, and just plain slightly louder.
Jun 19, 2006 06:53 pm yeppers, das some good info there, i definately HATE supperloud practices in a small room....VERY bad for the ears (even with pluggs)
if anything, vocals and kick should be all ya need to mic.
in your situation, i'd definately get rid of the powered mixer, and go for four channels of power (prolly two two channel power amps)....you'll be glad ya did later. and yes that is a working 'live rig'....that can get you gigs, but will also add wear and tear *and there's plenty of that to go around*
as for the room....put the drummer in the center of the longest wall facing out (with kick miked) bass amp goes against the short wall facing out.....guitar amp in corner next to bass amp...other guitar opposite corner and PA speakers in corners opposite of the drums.
basically the outter walls are lined with speakers all facing inward...everybody stands in the middle facing eachother (eyeconcact man).
and tell the drummer he dosn't have to kill 'em for practice, save it for a show.
meltdown5Faze 2 StudiosMember
Since: Aug 15, 2005
Jun 19, 2006 10:40 pm Id agree with Db, gigs are different then practice, i founds its very nice to be able to see eachother and talk to eachother when practicing/writing. its easier to discuss things and or signal to eachother when somebody misses a part of soemthing.
As for micing the amps, i think its really unneeded. As far as practices are concereened ive never really needed it to sound 100% great, as long as you can tell you and your band are hitting the right notes your fine. I usually just put the amps/PA speakers behind/near the drummer, and have everybody else (guitarist/bassists) surrend the dummber in sort of a semi circle. i find doing that makes practicing quitier too, well as quite as the drums....stupid drums...
Id jsut run vocals/keyboards/synths through the PA and not worry aboutanything else
hope this helps
-melty
Jun 20, 2006 12:55 am For Gods sakes man, save your ears now while you have 'em. I've been in some very loud groups playing drums and the noize battle never ends. Consider creating an atmosphere that will emulate a stage setting somewhat as far as sound. Remember, as your band gets better gigs, the PA's get bigger and the Mains do more work. Then, quite often the stage mix becomes more distant feeling. Try setting the amps so their sweet spots just miss everyone from a direct hit, yet, fill the room with some level of reflection. I think the "behind the drummer" set up might work but even at that, there should be no need for amping the cabs unless its a large regional or national group preparing for stage rehearsals. If doing like Meltdown says, put one PA speaker slightly tilted in toward the drummer to kill the need for additional vocal monitoring, especially for a high energy group. Being a drummer, nothing is more annoying when you're first learning a song and the singer fails to communicate clearly. Guitar strums, and bass plucks are easier to see than keyboard and vocals. So naturally, I'd say dedicate as much PA to them as possible. Sometimes an asymmetrical set-up works best. Good Luck!
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jun 20, 2006 06:31 am I preferr to practice in a stage configuration... because it was pretty common to play a show with decient mains but no monitors... so it was helpful in learning what was useful as a cue... and it prevents the usual "everyone facing each other while playing"
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Jun 20, 2006 11:23 am I personally like to practice facing eachother also, but i just want to configure the setup as a stage type thing, but wiht PA's facing in, i think the general consensus is that i can shave off a few db that way eh? so now i guess i wont mic the amps, but probably gonna put them behind the durmmer for sure so their not competing. The thing with my band, and i guess alot of bands out there is that the type of music we play kind of compels us to turn to 10. We can practice and play fine at lower volumes, but it just doesnt "feel" like us. I guess its one those we can only change with more time and more professionalism. any tips as to wat kidn of power amp i should get that is good for practice and small clubs? wat kind of options should i look for on it?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jun 21, 2006 08:43 am In my experience, the drummer doesn't need (or usually want) to hear the guitars. Drummers usually can hear / pickup on the bass for beat and timing coherence, but also, the drummer needs to hear the vocals, so he knows what's coming up.
We used to put a small practice amp (15w or so) back by the drummer, then run cable from the board to the monitor amp, with just the vocals in it. Then he could adjust for his own volume of vocals.
Practice-wise, we'd put the setup usually in a stage type config. We'd much rather get accustomed to positions, and sound locations before any gig, so we're used to who's where, and what is where. Then there's (usually) no real suprises on a gig. Though many times the layout changes, due to how stages are laid out.
Also, the quicker you (and band) gets used to playing without seeing each other, the better your sound gets. I think your playing will get tighter and improve if you don't look to each other for visual cues, timing, or inspiration. This is certainly MHO.
I think someone on here was selling PA equipment. Goeff, I think, though it's expired out of classified.
I'm not much in purchasing PA equip, but I'd probably be looking at crown or peavey, if I was looking. Probably 500w would do you pretty well for small places.
Jun 21, 2006 08:53 am Well, when you are songwriting or working on playing new tunes, visual cues and such are necessary unless you are telepathic...and in my eyes, practice was always for new material, most bands that have been together any length of time (that I have been in anyway) typically quit practicing some tunes and only play them at shows, cuz it's a waste of pratice time. A good performer should be able to turn his "performance" switch on and off at will...
And as far as making your practice space match a stage...well, maybe you guys have been luckier than me, or maybe it's different the Minnesota, but all stages are different in little clubs, sometimes they are shoved in any little corner thats available...
As far as PA equipment goes the last time I hauled my own around we had this (if memory serves):
- A Peavey 16 channel board
- two EV 15" and horn hi-packs FOH
- two EV 18" bins for FOH
- 3 or 4 wedges for monitors (which I designed and built)
- two Peavey stereo 450-watt a side (900 watt bridged) amplifiers
One amp had one side up half way running the hi-packs and the other side up full running the bins. The other amp had both sides running to wedges monitors.
That setup worked great and would fill a room that could hold 200 or so people...like most small clubs. Bigger venues often had their own gear.
of course you need a rack at the board too for compression, reverb, etc...
Jun 21, 2006 10:58 am i've found subs are not worth the effort to drag around.....the only time i was glad i brought 'em, was when dooin' a battle of the bands in a highschool gym....there was alotta air to move there (and i HATED runnin' sound for it, hard flat surfaces EVERYWHERE!)...they also come in handy for outdoor gigs...oOOoo that reminds me, we had all natural phasing at my last outdoor gig. it was cool, cuz if you ran from stage right to left, you'd get the ULTAMATE live natural and total phasing....even better than 70's analog boxes, way cool and EXTREMELY hard to fix (i ended up giving up after several 'tweaks' in placement and angle, and i'll be damned if i'm gonna 'time align' a PA ever again without proper gear. F DAT!
ok back to subject *reread....* oh, subs...yeah they're cool to have, but i'd worry about mains and monitors first. and get as many aux out's on your board as you can.
Jun 21, 2006 11:02 am I dunno, man, I disagree with you on the bins, at least in my situation the hi-packs sounded so much better and had so much more volume when the lowest frequencies were taken off the load...that said, depending on the volumes you are needing to push, it may or may not make a difference.
Jun 21, 2006 12:25 pm ahhh i never used crossovers, well unless they were a feature in the power amp, which usually wan't the case.
Jun 21, 2006 12:26 pm pfffft, then it makes good sense why you see them as a waste of time and energy...the crossover is what MAKES them do their job...without them you are using both the hi-packs and bins inefficiently...jeezuz, the sound had to be muddy as hell...yuck...
Jun 21, 2006 12:49 pm haha indeed i'twas!
Jun 21, 2006 12:53 pm If you can take everything under, say 300 hz (or whatever) off the 15" and shove it at the 18" it operates much better, and then the 18" is doing what it's made for...rather than having the whole frequency spectrum heading for it...anything over 300 hz is just wasting it's concentration of the low stuff it's good at...
If you have the chance I highly recommend you try it again, I have little doubt you'll hear what I mean.
Jun 21, 2006 12:59 pm yeah, i have used crossovers with subs (usually 12" mains with tweeters and two 15" cabs under 'em....but them bastards are heavy and eat up alotta space (unless ya stack 'em).....most 'bar' type gigs don't need 'em IMHO.
Jun 21, 2006 01:04 pm Yeah, with 12" woofers in the hi packs I could see it even being a better difference. They are heavy, I'll give ya that, even in clubs I liked them just because it made the hipacks sound better, plus it gave the hipacks something to sit on so they are up higher toward head/ear level, which is where you want the horns anyway.
If your hipacks are sitting on them, they really don't eat up much space that isn't eaten up anyway...other than a slightly bigger footprint.
I do agree tho, in real small venues they are not always needed...ya get up over a couple hundred peeps tho I like 'em.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 21, 2006 09:02 pm I have to agree with dB on the seperate bins and high packs. Although I was fortunate enough to have a big set up that could be taylored for both big and small venues. The gear was really due to the large drum kit as well as 2 guitars and 2 keyboard players. The outfit was put together and racked with other gear by Eclipse concert systems. And the massive gear was needed because of the huge array of synths we eventually got into. We owned our own truck to haul it in as well.
4 bins loaded with 2 18's
6 lo mid cabs loaded with 1 15 and 1 12
4 mid cabs with 2 12's
4 12 driver tweeter arrays
4 crossovers to taylor when needed.
2 racks full of not so necessary gear
4 800 watt mono amps for the bins
2 1000 mono for the lo mids
2 500 watt stereo for the mids
1 250 watt stereo for the tweeters
The moniter system was seperate with a 1000 watt stereo amp
All amps were Peavey
The board was a Kelsey 24 x 4 Later to be replaced by a 36 x 8.
Jun 23, 2006 10:16 am Yeah bins and top cabs are better and the stereo mixer trick works well.(bins from left, top cabs from right channel.)With a good stereo amp you can have both sides turned up full but reduce the right signal from the mixer master and use the pan control on bass drum to get more punch without straining the top cabs.Practice should be done with minimal gear so more time is spent on the music and the pub.
Jun 23, 2006 12:49 pm Crossovers a must. I played most my gigs in the 90's. We had 2 of 4 weekends at a club that had a 2000 person fire capacity and our sound man used a rig very similar to what Noize mentions above. The mids were EAW's and he used about half again that musch wattage to drive the system. Even when the place was packed with drunk college kids, the system didn't even break a sweat and my bass drum sounded like the Thunder of God. The sound it yielded is best described as a humungous home stereo. Killer.
