My Computer recording equipment.... I'm not understanding it??
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Posted on May 26, 2006 10:05 pm
Stuie
Member Since: May 26, 2006
Computer recording is new to me, and is confusing me at the moment alot, I wonder if anyone can help me? I'm using a Black Box USB interface to record with, with an M-Audio ASIO driver. I use Ableton live lite 5.2 recording software which in the preferences was set to record in 24bit 44khz,...but the soundcard has to be 16 bit because its just a rubbish built in one. I read the Black box specs and it says it captures sound at 24 bit/44kz "only",(therefore should Live Lite 5.2 be set to 24bit then) Also in the sound preference the Black Box is the input and output device, therefore is it a sound card aswell?
Ive had a game with setting this stuff up properly, and had a driver problem at one stage that gave me the "Blue Screen" a few times. Finally got that sorted out, but the Ableton Live Lite has never been the same since. Theres popping sounds and crackle when I record. I've rendered the songs Ive done to hard disk and disconnected the Black Box to play through the soundcard, and theres still popping and crackle. The latency is set automatically, and is at a low 11. I've been reading about 24bit soundcards are the way to go in quality, but do I need one? and how do I get rid of the noises? Thanks alot, Stu_C.
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May 27, 2006 12:25 pm I have not used the Black Box myself, but it looks like a pretty cool little unit. if it captures the sound at 24 bit, that likely means thats the quality of the A/D convertors, the bit rate your software records at is a wholwe different deal. 24 bit is great if you can do it, but it also takes a bigger load on your computer to do it and the files do take up more disc space.
First, I would go to m-audio's web site and make sure you have the newest drivers and it appears there is also a new firmware revision (version 2) that you will wanna make sure you have.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 27, 2006 03:13 pm dB Masters, Thanks for the info! so..If the music software recording depth is a different kettle of fish, then I need to buy a good sound card to accompany the Black Box? even though it shows as an Input/Output device in the Control Panel sound Preferences? sorry I'm new to this...
I've got the newly developed M-Audio USB ASIO driver..but am still getting the crackle, it happens occasionally on a track(on all songs I record) I've adjusted the buffers in the B.B preferences, from the lowest 128 all the way up, recording different stuff, but still crackle, I'm wondering if I've blown something!
The black box sounds are great, but I'd have to say the Line 6 Pod is pretty dam good, especially their Dual Rectifier Amp sound.
Stu_C.
May 27, 2006 03:33 pm I love the POD's rectifier model...hell, I like a lot of the POD's models...and most of the best ones are available in the cheaper TonePort interface, which is a sound device much like the Black Box.
I am not sure what to tell you, as it seems from what you have that it SHOULD be able to record at 24 bit just the same, unless 16 bit is one of the limitation of the Live "lite" version.
Have you tried the WDM drivers for the Black Box, assuming there are some?
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 27, 2006 03:47 pm dB Masters, yeah the POD's rectifer is better than the Black Box version to be honest, but theres alot of cool effects on the Black Box even a software update like you pointed out for more sounds, the drum machine is ok,(no reggae beats though) and has a built in Tuner too which is useful.
My question is, the sound card I have is a VIA AC'97 a generic 16bit built in thing, so all I can do is record in 16bit depth? or doesn't it matter as the Black Box is acting as a sound card? or is that completely wrong. I left the recording depth in Live lite to 24 bit.
I haven't tried the WDM drivers for the Black Box but haven't seen any. On the M-Audio site it only refers you to 2 drivers,both ASIO,I'm using the newest one. Thanks. Stu_C.
May 27, 2006 03:53 pm Yeah, the AC97 won't be much good for recording purposes, but, because I try to live by a "make do" attitude I can say you could try it and see, but don't expect much.
Ultimately, 16 bit isn't bad...24 bit is better, but hey, CD standard is 16 bit, so...well...if it's good enough for CD, it's good enough for me, eh?
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 27, 2006 04:01 pm Yeah thats true it all gets converted to 16bit anyway for CD's, I've heard with 24 bit theres more head room, the levels can be higher..I was wondering if maybe thats why I'm getting the crackle its maxing out or something. Or my other thought was if I get a 24 bit sound card it may solve my crackling issue as the card has burned out. Its just funny..I recorded a quick version of Eric Claptons tears in heaven, a tranquill song then all of a sudden in mid song a crackle, its annoying. Thanks.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 27, 2006 04:02 pm Stuie, yes the black box should be used as your audio interface. You will need to find the audio options section in Live lite and set it as the driver/interface to use. It sounds as though Live is not set to use that interface yet, and you will need to set it up to do so.
I dont use Live lite so I cant help you much there as to finding your way around the menu. I think there are a couple here who might use it.
Other option is I do have a copy of it that came with my UX-2. If I have some time this weekend I will install it and have a look for you to send you on your way to setting it up correctly.
Noize
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 27, 2006 04:16 pm Noize2u, thanks for the help, but I think I may have it set up correctly in Live Lite 5.2, in the preferences the driver is set up to, M-Audio USB ASIO driver, and in the hardware it shows as the Black Box with the default latency.(which I've messed about with also to get rid of the crackle, to no effect)
I've just had windows home Sp2 installed on my computer, so the software should be fine, but at one stage I had driver conflicts, when I installed the first USB condensor mic?? which I've since taken back to the shop. A little while after that I got the stop error screen "Blue Screen" a few times. I then uninstalled the Black Box driver, and installed it again, and since then its been ok, but hasn't been the same when recording, now has the crackle, something within that time frame has messed something up, I'm wondering whether to uninstall Live Lite and reinstall. Thanks.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 27, 2006 05:50 pm Noize2u, thanks for the help.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 28, 2006 12:51 pm Did you get it resolved then? Or do you still have the crackle?
How high have you tried setting the DMA buffer size in the M-Audio control panel itself, or just in Live Lite?
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 28, 2006 03:33 pm I've been working on getting rid of the crackle for a few days haha, no luck.
The Black Box device's buffer size =80 samples in the Black Box preferences. Overall Latency of 11.6ms, ive set the Live Lite buffer size from 32 up to 8192, with no getting rid of the crackle. Ive recorded at all settings, entering and exiting live lite to make sure the settings are loaded.
I then changed the Black Box buffer size to =128samples Overall Latency=13.8ms, and tryed all Live Lite preference buffer sizes from 32-8192. Thanks for the reply, but no-luck so far!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 28, 2006 11:10 pm Well when I use my older box with a Delta 44 on it I usually run the DMA buffer setting for the delta panel at 128 and the latency slider all the way down in Sonar. I can run at about 8ms with that set up. And running up to 30 odd tracks of audio without any ill effects such as you are getting. The only way I can choke it is to run a huge load of software synths with the latency that low. It is an older PIII 667, so its about half the CPU you have.
I would guess that maybe being a USB device has an impact on it as far as that kind of performance. But you think you should be able to at least get rid of the noise by upping the latency buffer. That is the normal procedure to eliminate that kind of thing.
Have you tried playing back maybe CD audio or an mp3 or something to see if the card does that then?
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 29, 2006 08:57 am I've been rendering the files to hard disc occasionally, but havent got Nero or any converted software to change the files to MP3, just using the Itunes which is AAC. I've sent the songs to friends, and they all hear the crackle.
It seems to me that any graphical movement onscreen gives Live Lite crackle, alot if I'am to click on the option tables etc..is that normal?
I've been reading alot about that USB interfaces aren't that great..this Black Box was a gift actually. Its amazing how much money you can spend on just trying to record some audio.
I've got to go out for the day, but I will try what you have suggested later hopefully today, I believe I've tryed everything, but I may have missed something. Thanks for the help, Stu_C.
May 29, 2006 09:03 am i'd raise your buffers alot and see what that does, when i've got 30 tracks gooin', i usually have my buffers up to 1028k ....and make sure both the card's driver and software (ableton) are set to the exact same settings....start with 16/44.1 and see if you can get it runnin'...
das all i can think of man. you should be able to get something working with what you have.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 31, 2006 11:13 am whosyourdaddy00, thanks for the info, I talked to the m-audio tech support through email, and they said they think its a IRQ sharing resource problem, which is what I narrowed it down to through searching on a search engine. I'm gonna try following their fix for this by phoning them, and do it step by step. I know that 2 things can't share the same IRQ number or something like that, the tech guy also said it might solve the problem to use a different USB port, but I did try that to no effect, its an old base unit on my computer, I only have 2 USB slots. Cheers, Stu_C.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 31, 2006 02:07 pm sounds like an IRQ issue to me, too. If you've changed around the buffer settings, then I doubt that's it.
If there's a screen change, and crackles occur, then I'd go right for the IRQ issue. Maybe the bios can change the USB IRQ, or maybe change the Video IRQ.
Just thinking out loud . . .
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 31, 2006 03:19 pm Pjk,thanks, I'm gonna get on the phone to the m-audio tech support tomorrow to see if I can sort this problem out! yes the Black Box seems to crackle more when theres movement on the screen. I've got 2 USB slots, and have noticed that if its plugged into the right one the Black Box get connected (in the Control Panel), if it uses the left it doesnt work. Though the left one with work for my digi-camera etc...I don't think this is connected to my problem though....thanks again. Stu_C.
May 31, 2006 03:28 pm Quote:
I've heard with 24 bit theres more head room, the levels can be higher...
this is a common misconception...24 bits does indeed have more headroom, but it's in the lower volume levels that it goes... all digital clips at 0db full scale. so a 16 bit signal that is recorded really really quiet will begin to show artifacts and sound bad at around -90db...wheras a 24 bit signal you can get super quiet (somewhere around -140db) and it'll retain good resolution...so if you were to make the 16 bit quiet track louder, you'd really hear the 'low resolution-ness' but you can bring the quiet 24 bit signal up and it will sound great.
really the whole hotter signal=better quality thing is crap when you get to 24 bit....many people track instruments with the peaks well under zero (i like to use -12) and you can mixdown to a 24bit wave file and leave 20db's of headroom for the mastering engineer to work with.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
May 31, 2006 04:02 pm whosyourdaddy, thanks for the info, interesting..I can't adjust the volume of the black-box, but its set to lowest it can go. Its not in bold so I can't adjust it, I've recorded my guitar at a really low input level, not touching the clip, but crackle is there for me.
You are talking about recording levels etc. and that is some interesting information, I will take that onboard in the future.
The Black-Box only records in 24bit 44khs, so I have my Live Lite set to 24bit, but changing it to 16bit doesnt make any difference anyway. Cheers, Stu_C.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
Jun 01, 2006 02:49 pm The M-Audio tech support said on the phone today, that he thought the IRQ was ok, and that nothing seems to be messed up in the list. He thinks my problem may have something to do with the USB Microphone that I installed, the driver may not have been deleted properly after uninstalling it. I'm Still having problems at this stage (1 week today)...it would be great if there was a computer music tech person that could come to your house and sort out your problems! Stu_C.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Jun 01, 2006 03:03 pm I'm sure you'd get a few takers . . .
. . . but the travel charge would be outrageous =)
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
Jun 01, 2006 06:46 pm Someone with a good knowledge of sorting peoples probs out could earn alot of dosh, as we say in the U.K.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
Jun 03, 2006 12:04 pm A computer shop installed a new USB card for me recently, but hasn't solved my problem, I STILL got the crackling.
I'm using the Black Box as my sound card, so with the Mix/playback button turned up, I play MP3's etc. hearing the crackle. So its either the hardware or drivers. I've used 3 different M-Audio drivers, installing, uninstalling, restarts, 1000 times, to no effect. I've adjusted Latencey in the Black Box preferences, no luck.
The computer shop i go to has just changed the IRQ's to no effect, and they told me to try turning Norton off (with the internet off, obviously) and has done nothing. Wow this is tiring!
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
Jun 03, 2006 02:40 pm Hmmm, the Black Box is a 1.1 USB device only, I've just had a 2.0 USB card fitted,hehe, 1.1 devices can be run on a 2.0 but I've got to make sure it is set up like that..can't be done till monday now..where I can get the computer Tech person to check it.. damn. Wish I had the skills myself.
StuieMember
Since: May 26, 2006
Jun 09, 2006 07:01 pm I've given up on the computer recording, and am buying a 16 track digital recording console tomorrow, I had enough of the conflicts and other problems etc. This console im buying records at 24bit, with a 40gig HD, and 8 inputs..so I'll be happy with that. Thanks to anyone that tryed to help me over the last month. Cheers. Stu_C.
Jun 10, 2006 02:37 am word up, also, you can probably export to cd (make sure it's got a burner in it, you'll NEED it) in 24 bit .wav and just throw the tracks into your computer and mix in there (mixing on a computer IMHO is way easier than on a standalone digital recorder) the hardest thing about them is the multiple menus that can be ....um not so intituative... but yeah it's all in how you work with what you have, and them things can put out some good sounds. sorry the computer **** on ya.
