Recording a Rock Band?
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Posted on Mar 17, 2006 03:14 pm
RadioDaze
Member Since: Mar 17, 2006
Im the bassist for a 3 piece rock group, and Im trying to get together a setup for us to use to record our tracks. Im looking for advice concerning what Id need to create a decent sounding home recorded demo. I'll list off the equipment I currently have:
A Pentium III 933mhz system
390megs of ram
a very basic build in soundcard with line in, line out, and mic in
USB2 ports avaliable
2 sm57 mics
Basically, we want to record drums, bass, guitar and vocals. What would be the best way to go about this? Ive looked at many different options, but Im not sure what the best is to go with. We obviously need some more mics to mic the drums. As well, do we need to get a mixing board to record the drums? Ive also been looking into the Mbox, but that only has 2 inputs. Is it possible to record a drum kit using an Mbox or similar type usb interface? I like the idea of an Mbox because I dont have to get a new soundcard.
Is it possible to connect a mixing board to the computer sound card i input. currently have? Ive tried doing some acoustic recording by plugging my sm57 into the mic It worked ok, but not the quality im looking for. Plus is had this humming sound in the background of every track I recorded :P
Also, if we were to get a mixer, could i connect that to the Mbox somehow, and If so, would we be able to edit each mic'd drum track from within say, pro tools le? or would it come in as just a single drum track? Man, I know this sounds like a lot, I just need some guidance in terms of whats the smartest way to spend my cash. I dont have a ton to spare, maybe 500 -700 bucks canadian. Any suggestions to get me on the right path would really help me out, thanks
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pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 17, 2006 03:36 pm Hey there RadioDaze, welcome to the wonderful world of home recording. Welcome to HRC, as well.
You're PC will probably be fine, if you don't get too crazy with the effects plugins, or try to use 30 or 40 tracks. For a demo, and for getting your feet wet, the PC will do fine. The memory would probably be the first place to upgrade hardware, but you'll probably be fine.
The software (windows) will need to be thinned out, for decent running of multi-tracks. If your writing 4 or 8 tracks at a time, you'll not want anything else in the PC trying to get processing time, so a clean ship is a happy ship. Reloading is a very good option, then only loading bare necessities. Reloading isn't required, but it may be the difference between glitched up tracks, and pristine tracks.
The mbox is a sound card. You can look at it as a sound interface. The built in one you have probably wont do, because of a few reasons: 1. it's only 2 channel, 2. it's very low quality, 3. it's probably slower to convert to digital than a 'recording' type card.
With that in mind, you'll be looking for a new card (interface).
USB and Firewire are external options, but most offer only 2 channels (some do more, but I'm not sure I'd be happy trying to track 4 or 6 tracks through either).
So I'd think that PCI (internal) sound interface would be your choice. In that arena (for cheap) there's the maudio delta 1010lt, and the 1010, plus there's the ESI ESP1010. The 1010lt goes for 199, the ESP1010 can be had for 299, and the 1010 for 299 or 399, i can't remember which.
These cards (and breakout boxes) will give you 8 incoming signals that can be kept separate in your computer. Very nice for adjusting tracks after you've gotten them down.
With these cards you'd need preamps of some sort. Many here (myself included) use a mixer as multiple preamps, to get the line level signal into the computer. It works quite well, and offers great flexibility for routing signal around.
Standalone preamps can work as well, or better, quality wise, but you would not have the routing options.
Mixer that can sport 8 individual outs can be had for 250 or so and up. Behringer is the cheapest, then yamaha, peavy, soundcraft, alto, mackie, are out there as well.
If you're looking at 2 tracks, then you can do all this with a maudio audiophile 24/96 or a juli@ card from ESI. Both will get great tracks, but only two at a time. You would need a 2 channel preamp, or a small mixer to get signal into the PC at line level.
Also, there's the 4 channel method, with a maudio 44 or 66, or a ESI maya 66 (i think). There's others I'm sure, but I can't remember right now.
You could track the drums with 2 mics, and track a bass and a guitar all at the same time (bass and guitar might have to be direct in), then sing the vocals after.
After this hardware issue is looked at, there's the software issue. You can get competant software packages for multitracking for around 100$, there's MTS, Ntrack, PG audio (i think) and a few others. For more $$$ there's more robust packages, but you may not be needing that until you get more experienced with your hardware.
On the effects side, there's lots of free plug-ins that will work up a demo quite nicely, the khaerjhus (sp?) stuff works quite well, and is free). Cocofromscotland wrote up some reviews awhile ago.
One other thing: monitors. This may not be a critical component, but it can greatly speed up your mixing time, by giving you a clear idea of what your mix sounds like. Some do this on headphones, but I won't. I only use HP for tracking, or looking for hot spots in a mix. There's inexpensive sets to be had, but they won't be great. But, (big but) they will be better than PC speakers, of pretty much any size or fashion. Consumer speakers are made to accentuate the highs and lows, so you'll always be skewed in your sound image. It can be done, but it's tougher.
More mics will probably help bunches. A decent large diaphragm condensor can be had for 100 or so, and will help much on the vocals. It can also be used for tracking the drums in a 3 mic setup: LDC for kick and drums, the 2 sm57 for overheads, then mix for dandy sound. It can, and has, been done, so don't feel put off by that method.
So there's a bunch to think about, I didn't keep a running total, as I'm not sure what's more important to you, quality or price =).
Ain't that always the pinch?
Anyway, have fun, and good luck. Let us know how you get on, and kick up questions as you get them.
meltdown5Faze 2 StudiosMember
Since: Aug 15, 2005
Mar 17, 2006 09:50 pm I dont know much about interfaces, but it sounds liek your going to need mic's aswell. So your probably going to want to get very flexable mic's. the Sm57's ARE GREAT, good choice, those will work very well with guitar amps, and very well with a snare drum. But the great thing is that the sm57 will really sound good on anything, so you can shave off a lot of money by just using the 57's you have on vocal's.
For mic'ing a drum set, you can really get a great sound using 3 mic's. I'd do a 2 overhead, and a kickdrum technique to mic the drums. I'm not sure how good the sm57's would sound as overheads for a drum set, but i can't imagine them being "bad" in any sense. so if you have 2 57's, all you would need would be a kickdrum mic and you would be set on everything. Do you plan on multitracking? or overdubbing each track?
I'd say you probably want to over dub things, becuase not only does it lessen the need for more mic's, it lessens the need for more pre-amps, and imputs, and still sounds great.
Mar 18, 2006 03:47 pm Hey PJK, thanks a ton for your response. It was quite insiteful, and Ive got a few questions now :D
I checked out the maudio delta 1010lt, one can be had for 150 american on ebay, and my computer system will have enough guts to handle it, so thats good. My question is, if i were to get something like that, how hard is it to connect it to a mixer? I checked out a few behringer mixers, like the Behringer Eurorack UB1222FX-PRO Mixer, which can be had for like 160 bucks new. So for around 300 bucks together, i can definitely handle something like that. Would those 2 together be alright for what i want to do? Would it allow me to us say Pro Tools LE (or whatever multitrack program i decide to use) and get a seperate track for each mic that I run through the mixer? Thanks again for all your help, i think im finally starting to get an idea of what i need.
Mar 18, 2006 04:19 pm A 1222 only has a couple output busses, so you couldn't use each mic separately, You would need something like the 2442 to be able to use more channels as individual tracks.
By the way, your bands drummer is kinda purty... :-)
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 20, 2006 11:54 am I looked around, and researched some, and settled on the yamaha mg16/4. I wasn't too inspired by the behringer line (though many here use them lots, and love them), and heard some very good stuff about the yamaha line, so went with that. I used the mg16/4 with the 1010lt with good results.
What I do, and others here do as well, is use the channel inserts as output points. This will let you tap signal out of each preamp channel, sending it into the 1010lt on it's own track. Works quite well for small timers like me.
Only push your 1/4" jack in until the first click, not all the way, or you'll break the signal. Leaving the signal flowing through the rest of the mixer will let you route the monitoring signal however you want.
The only downside, is that if you wanted to use an external device ( compressor, or EQ ) on a channel individually, then the insert would be used by your signal cable going to the computer. Small tradeoff for me, as I don't have any outboard gear to worry about.
pro-tools le work with maudio stuff? I know there's the m-powered pro tools, but I don't know about the LE version. I'd shoot for something a little less involved, and probably less spendy. But be sure that the package you get will track multiple channels. Some of the less expensive ones only track 1 or 2 at a time. Most of the mainstream apps won't be a problem though.
Mar 21, 2006 07:33 am m-powered protools and LE are almost virtually identical. have used both... The poblem with protools is it will only work with specific hardware. I'd recommend getting something with an adat input, its a cheap way of getting multiple inputs. and using it with adobe audition 2.0 or if you have the right hardware, I'd probably still use protools, I have less latency problems with it.
Mar 21, 2006 07:43 am Anything with "ProTools" on the package is gonna be picky regarding hardware. As far as I know, the LE pakcage works with only digidesign hardware...which is why they made "M-Powered", so it can work with M-Audio, which is now owned by the ProTools peeps.
Mar 21, 2006 07:55 am Reckon you wouldnt go far off with the Delta 10/10 and a decent mixer for preamplification but here's a wee idea for ye...
Do you HAVE to record 100% live??? If not, you could get by with less gear and save cash (though this would take longer, weigh up time factors versus price and budget).
For example, when I recently recorded my band (you'll hear my band on my profile) I recorded our drums using 3 mics, then second pass was guitars and bass and finally, vocals.
Whilst I had a slightly more complex setup i.e. I tracked using a FostexVF160 multitrack (great unit) which has 8 channels, 8 preamps etc, then dumped into Cubase, you could do similar using ONLY a PC with a decent card and some creativity.
My PC is loaded with an M-Audio Delta44. Now, this will give you 4 ins and 4 outs. You wouldnt really be able to record properly live with just 4 mics (and you'd STILL need a preamp with 4 channels in/out or a mixer with appropriate busses) as you'd need at least 2 or 3 on drums, plus your guitars and vocals BUT, you could do very good staged recording with say drums, guitars then vocals working on the overdub basis.
This may not suit, and I do accept that as we found that not playing the stuff live, lost some energy but again, there are ways around that. You can use headphones (to stop the bleed of playing at the same time as recording), all play but only record certain parts, there are always options...I guess the crucial things here are:
1) Your budget
2) Your budget
3) Your budget ;-)
Basically, if you can afford it, get youself the card that allows you the most inputs at once with the best sound and bang to buck ratio you can find. If not, as most of us cant, get the best compromise on live tracking ability versus price versus quality and build from that.
It's a great ole world the old Home Recording world ... welcome, enjoy and it gets easier!
Keep on rockin.
Coco.
Mar 21, 2006 01:46 pm Hey guys, thanks for all your replies.
Basically, my basic need is to be able to record drums, with at least 3 or 4 mics. It would be nice to have the ability to play live as well however. With that being said, all I would really need is 6 channels max (3-4 for drums, one for bass, one for guitar) So really, anything with more that 6-8 inputs really isnt necessary for me, as we're only a three piece garage rock band. What would be my best bet for something with 6 channels? I did look at the m audio delta 44, which seems to have very solid reviews, but only 4 tracks. I heard that you can run 2 at a time to get a max of 8 tracks, is that true? I like the look of that card because it has the 1/4 inputs. As you guys were saying before, theres the Delta 10/10lt, but Im confused by all the plugins. How come there are only 2 mic inputs, and the rest are those RCA inputs is it? How would you hook that up to a preamp or mixer?
I also looked at the Alesis Multimix 8 firewire, which for 300 bucks new, seemed like a good buy, since it allows for 8 tracks at once over firewire. However, I have read a lot of mixed reviews, many of them bad ones with many problems and driver issues. Is anyone familiar with that unit? Is firewire a good way to go, or with my current needs (and computer) is it a bad choice? Thanks again for all our help, things are making a lot more sense to me now in terms of what i need.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Mar 21, 2006 02:12 pm Quote:
I heard that you can run 2 at a time to get a max of 8 tracks, is that true?
I'm running 3 cards with no issues at all. You can run up to 4 cards in 1 machine.
Mar 21, 2006 03:18 pm BeerHunter, I take it you do multiple tracks at once, what are you using for a preamp?
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Mar 21, 2006 03:42 pm Yes I record most of our jam sessions so I regularily track anywhere from 8 - 12 tracks at a time. As long as I don't load up a bunch of VST's then I don't have any issues at all and my PC is not all that great.
For my pre-amp I am using a NADY PRE-8. Not the best pre around that is for sure but I only do this for a hobby so I had to go cheap.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 21, 2006 04:08 pm I'd say go with PCI if you can, instead of firewire. The esp1010 is being used here with good results, and gives you 8 analog inputs in one breakout box. 1/4" balanced too, i believe. plus 2 xlr inputs, if needed.
the 1010lt rca cables will receive signal from your preamp (or mixer) channel outputs. Usually in 1/4" form on the mixer / preamp, then converting to a rca plug on the other end. I used a Hosa 1/4" to RCA 8 channel snake, worked great.
I bought the esp1010 for 299 new from some place in FL.
I looked at the maudio delta1010 but was a little more impressed with the ESP1010 in terms of sonic specs, and having the 2 preamps built in. Also, dB and Noize are using ESI stuff, and getting 1ms latency, so that was a nice drawing factor as well.
I'd think, that if you're going to be looking for 6-8 inputs, then look to a single card that'll do it, instead of 2 or 3 cards. BH has it running without problem, but I'd think if you can lower your PCI buss usage, then you'll be better off.
Not saying that BH has a bad route, i'm just thinking out loud.
Apr 20, 2006 05:20 pm :O
Apr 20, 2006 05:43 pm Ok, so Ive decided that for now, all I need to concern myself with is being able to record 2 tracks at once. I dont need to worry about 4 or 8, so what is the best setup that my Pentium III 933Mhz PC can handle for the best price that would allow me to record 2 tracks at once?
Im going to be using an electric drum kit for the drums, and then overdub the bass, guitars and vocals. The drum kit has a line out that would allow us to record with.
I've kinda been thinking Id rather go with something that has a breakout box with inputs I can either plug into directly with an instrument, or a plug in a Mic to mic an amp, rather than going with something that I have to hook up to a small mixer or something, if that makes sense? Also, how would using a unit like that be with recording Electronic Yamaha drums? Would I be able to plug the line out directly in one of the inputs? Thanks for all you guys help by the way, it's been awesome :D
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Apr 20, 2006 05:47 pm It would be unfair for me to make any comments (good or bad) as to the quality of the NADY. The reason for this is that I don't really have (or have used) any other pre. However, I can say this about it. It has worked without any issues for the last year. I'm just a hobbiest when it comes to this stuff and when I have to fund everything myself I have to go cheap.
You can have a listen to our tunes by following this link. Everything you hear was done through my home studio. Gear is listed in my profile.
www.guitaristworks.com/artists/RacketBand
Take care,
Lonnie
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 22, 2006 12:30 am Where are you located? The ESP 1010 can be had for under $300.00 US these days, brand new.
Apr 22, 2006 01:56 pm Really? Im located in BC, Canada. If you know of a place that'll ship to canada, Im game. That unit looks to be the best in terms of having 8 inputs, 2 already balanced? Does that mean id just need a preamp for the remaining 6?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 23, 2006 09:58 pm Here is one distributer in Canada. www.kaysound.com/
Otherwise you can check with most of these guys on the US list. I am sure several of them ship to Canada. www.esi-pro.com/where.php?division=1
And yes, then you can either add a pre for the other 6 channels or if you have access to a mixer with direct outs from each of six channels or maybe an 8 buss mixer.
