Jan 09, 2006 02:35 pm don't built it square, and if possible, don't have any walls parallel...including floor and ceiling
Converting garage into studio. Please Help
Posted on Jan 09, 2006 02:33 pm
peppyisadog
Member Since: Jan 01, 2006
Hey everyone, I am really new to recording and doing my best with what I know so far and the equipment I have (mainly I am using a roland 2400cd) One thing that I know is that the garage I record in sounds awful so a few friends and I decided we will build a room within my garage to record drums, amps, and hopefully vocals as well. We have a very limited budget so I wanted to see if anyone here had any tips for me. they would be greatly appreciated. This forum has helped me out so much already. Thanks again.
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Jan 09, 2006 02:35 pm don't built it square, and if possible, don't have any walls parallel...including floor and ceiling
Jan 09, 2006 02:47 pm yea ive been hearing that alot. What exactly does a floating floor, wall, or ceiling mean. I have an idea but im not positive and i wanna get this right. Thanks for the quick reply too.
Jan 09, 2006 03:03 pm Floating means theres nothing being adhered or permanantly secured to the structure...You hear this term alot with floors and these new laminate systems that interlock without adhesive...You just lay down some padding, poly and snap the floor in...therefore its floating...
Same with suspended acoustical ceiling tile or panels...thats a floating system...
Usually a floating wall has to be secured somehow...A good audio wall would be like a "sandwich" but it all depends...A floating wall is like a 2 layer sheet rock wall with one to one half inches gap in between...You can buy a Z-Channel screw track to make this separation...
The net has material on this if you search hard enough...
Jan 09, 2006 03:05 pm If it's for hobby reasons, and you are on a budget, I surely wouldn't stress over the floating floor and stuff...others I am sure disagree, but it's wouldn't be the highest on my list, you said you want it to sound decent, didn't say anything about sound proofing or anything, so I wouldn't sweat that one a great deal.
Jan 09, 2006 03:12 pm Agreed, thats something people like to throw around but 9 times out of 10 you will never come across a garage or home application with that much detail in it. At most you will usually find walls double layered sheetrock...At most...
Jan 09, 2006 04:07 pm Well, I've built three of them now, so I guess I know one or two things about it. First, it won't be cheap, and it won't be fast, but if you do the work yourself you should be able to pull it off for under 2 grand.
I spent about 1500 on the studio I just finished, and about 4000 on the one before this. Like others have said, don't worry about the floating floor and ceiling stuff too much. You don't need high tech solutions like Z-Channel or mass loaded vynil either. All you need to do is build your walls and ceiling without touching the walls and ceiling of the house. Just frame out a big box and layer the walls with double layers of 5/8ths inch drywall both inside and out.
Before you build it, you can lay down some carpet pad and carpet and just frame out a box on top of it. Contractors will say that you have to anchor it. Pure BS! The walls which will be double layerd 5/8ths drywall inside and out will be so heavy that the very weight of the construct will keep it in place, even when you slam the extra heavy door shut.
My last studio was built this way, but I used just 1/2 inch drywall instead of 5/8ths. But I also used a layer of roll roofing between sheets. So it's about as good as 5/8ths.
My final result was excellent. Our master bedroom was directly on the other side of the garage. My wife and newborn were able to sleep comfortably while I had a full on metal bland blowing at full blast. She said it sounded about like a tv show in the next room, no more.
Jan 09, 2006 04:08 pm jeezuz, thats expensive, I finished my entire basement for less than that a few years ago...but like you said, it ain't fast doing it youself.
Jan 09, 2006 05:39 pm Thanks alot for all the responses, I think i have a decent idea of what Im gonna end up doing. If anyone can think of anything else please let me know. Ill keep you guys posted on how it turns out whenever I get my finances together.
Oh and any thoughts on insulation? I know Auralex makes a special kind but its kind of pricey for the size of my room. Is regulat insulation ok or is their anything else I could use?
Thanks again
Jan 09, 2006 05:41 pm regular r19 insulation does OK in the walls, but that won't help the sound inside the room...I built these www.homerecordingconnecti...story&id=50 to control sound in the room itself some with loose insulation, some with insulation packed in hard...
Jan 09, 2006 10:12 pm The panels dB made will work just fine for what you need. Just a little absorbtion will do the trick for sure. And I must agree that a floating floor is absolutely not a must do either. As long as you build your walls so there is no vibration/buzzing during loud playing you will be OK. As for the insulation in the walls themselves what dB recomended is fine as well. This will actually help dampen the room some as well so you are ahead of the game there.
Lastly for a budget room, dont let the saleguy talk you into any of that fancy sound board, it is not needed on a budget either. Standard sheet rock will work just fine with good insulation pakce in thight behind it.
Jan 10, 2006 10:50 am $1500 Expensive? Finishing a basement is one thing, but constructing a whole room is a lot more involved, then properly soundproofing it is another.
In my small studio I used 40 sheets of drywall alone, that's $400 right there. Then the wood framing, insulation, carpet, door, control room glass, sound foam etc it all adds up. The bid I got from the contractor was $1500 just to frame it out. But I did the whole thing myself for what he wanted just to frame it.
In my larger studio I spent a lot more money, but it was much bigger, plus I think that might have included the cost of cabling it out. People usually underestimate what that will cost.
The first studio I did about 6 years ago was just a basement room finish out. I think I only spent about $500 on that, but that was not room within a room, just adding drywall, furring strips, and insulation to the walls. It's a far cry from real soundproofing. It was my first attempt. I learned there is a major difference between finishing out a room and building a room within a room. Learned it the hard way.
Jan 10, 2006 10:55 am finishing a basement was building a couple rooms, one of which was a theatre so sound control and in-wall wiring and such was part of the plan as well. I spent, as I recall, around $1200 to finish the main theatre and the little room off to the side of it...it was done quite well and took a while cuz me and my dad did it as time permitted.
But yeah, if you are building control room, live room, iso booth and such, yes, I can see the bill going up considerable there...
Jan 10, 2006 12:58 pm Yeah, I guess I kinda went for it whole hog. People are telling me that they've never seen a home studio that was this complete before. I guess most people just add some drywall or soundfoam to the walls and call it a studio.
Maybe I overdid it a bit, but what the hell, I get a good recording at least.
Jan 10, 2006 01:01 pm I know some people that went pretty crazy in their basements, even helped build one or two. Of them, people that go the drywall and sound foam route often time make just as good of recordings, it just is not in quite the same "professional environment".
It all depends on who you are and how good you are at what you do. Hell, since I moved in to my new house 3 or 4 years ago my studio is concrete block walls with my homemade sound boards on the wall and ceiling and I get great sound...
Jan 10, 2006 02:00 pm I guess for me the control room is really the thing. I don't see how you can possibly correctly monitor from within the same room that the musicians are playing in.
At some point, the laws of physics must be respected. Only mass and airspace will prevent the passage of sound waves. That means that you must have a physically separated environment from which to monitor what is being recorded.
Also, keep in mind, not all of us are lucky enough to have a basement to build in. Of the three studios I have built, only one was in a basement.
If you are in an adjacent room such as a garage, you may not have the luxury of concrete between the house wall and your studio. I certainly didn't. In that case, you must have room within a room design to be able to both insulate your recording from external noise, and to prevent your own sound from escaping too much.
It's not all about what kind of sound you get while recording, it's also about whether you can monitor the signal effectively and whether you can prevent unwanted noise. I think you are comparing soundproofing to sound control, to very important but very different concepts.
Jan 10, 2006 02:01 pm oops I meant "two very important but very differnt concepts"
Jan 10, 2006 02:05 pm Actually, I wasn't comparing or contrasting anything...the original thread had nothing to do with sound proofing, is was to make the sound better...therefore, thats all I am thinking about.
obviously going all out is the best answer, but with budget in mind, as it is, that quite obviosuly isn't a viable solution...and really, isn't always even necessary and is sometime a complete waste of time and money.
Jan 10, 2006 02:08 pm Oh, sorry I thought he said he was planning to build a room within his garage. Guess I must have misunderstood.
Jan 10, 2006 02:12 pm yeah, they are, but with a budget in mind...and, we also have not been told the condition of the current garage...so it may not really be a true "room within a room...it could be a room within some rotting 2x4's for all we know :)
Jan 10, 2006 02:20 pm Yeah, by the way this all go me interested in what I really spent all the money on. So I did a spreadsheet on it. Out of that 1500 (actually it came out to about 1600) I spent 250 on plywood panels that I never used and 144 on helpers. Since I was new in town, I did not have any friends to help me with it yet.
I guess I could have done the whole thing for like $1200 or so. But man, it was a lot of work. took me over two months, and I only had help on two days of it.
I also have like a million pieces of scrap drywall and never even touched thin plywood to get rid of. I plan to use some of the drywall to build isolation booths, can't figure out what to do with the plywood though.
Jan 10, 2006 04:13 pm This is what we are thinking about doing as of now:
2 12x7 walls and 2 11x7 walls each with double layers of dry wall the 2x4 frames and regular r19 insulation. Im gonna build these walls about 4 inches away from the cinder block garage walls so they will not be touching. I am going to be looking further into a product called quiet zone insulation by owens corning but i havent priced it yet. I also am thinking about changing the shape from a square to something more irregular im just not sure how to do it without losing to much space.
Should I do the ceiling the exact same way as the walls with 4 pieces of drywall and everything?
thanks again
Jan 10, 2006 04:21 pm That sounds like a pretty good plan...
That quiet zone insulation isn't really very good, I tried that stuff once, not much difference.
If you do decide to keep those walls parallel do yourself a favor and build some angled bookshelves in the corner or something, bass builds up in corners. If you can, make the ceiling a little vaulted or slanted all one way to keep it from being parallel with the floor. Also, if possible, sheetrock both sides of those walls, especially the ones facing the cinder block, it will help that 4" space be a more effective bass trap.
Get heavy quilts, old blankets, velvet "dogs playing cards" wall hangings, anything like that to hang on the walls to absorb some sound...
Jan 10, 2006 06:05 pm DBs advice is right on, put drywall on both sides of the frame. Also be careful with the insulation, if you pack it in too tightly it will act like a solid medium transferring sound from the innerwall to the outer wall thus defeating the whole thing. You only want to use enough to prevent the space between the walls from acting like an echo chamber.
Personally, I prefer using professional acoustic foam to blankets and quilts, but they all work. One guy I know ran 70's style shag carpet on the walls and ceiling. It worked, looked a little cheesy but it definitely worked.
Good luck!
Jan 10, 2006 06:51 pm Yea we already bought 48sq ft of foam for a closet we were originally going to use so Im pretty sure we are gonna save up to get more of that. Is it better to cover everything or just certain areas?
We were planning on doubling up the dry wall already but just so im positive I understand correctly(sorry im a bit slow) I should use two sheets of dry wall on the inside and two on the outside of every frame right?
Thanks for all the input
Jan 10, 2006 07:20 pm We left two areas without foam in the vocal booth, and used opposing mirrors instead to elliminate the clausterphobia(sp) that a long session might induce . I'm not sure it it's 'proper', but it sounds/feels fine to me .
Jan 10, 2006 11:39 pm peppy, you dont really want to dompletely cover everything with foam. Unless you need an absolutely dead room. If you recording a vocal that will be treated with reverb after the track is laid, then it does work OK. But otherwise I prefer a little bit of the room to be present in most tracks. Sometimes a lot fo the room, depending on how good it sounds.
Your best bet will be to start out with a little foam ando work up from there as you try differant recordings in the room.
Jan 11, 2006 05:10 pm Yes, two sheets of drywall on one side of the studs and two sheets on the other. Pink insulation in the area between the two sides of dry wall, but not too tight. If you find yourself compressing it rather than just laying it up, it's too thick.
Another factor about foam, or other sound absorption materials is not just how much area you cover, but how dense or thick the foam is.
I use a very high percentage of coverage in my studio (almost 100%, all but the window to the control booth) but I still have some life in the room because I use 1" foam. If I were using 4" pyramids or egg crate my room would be too dead.
48sf is not very much, won't even cover one wall, so yeah you should get more. You might want to put it up temporarily first use 3M spray glue directly on the drywall but NOT on the foam and then just stick the foam on it.
This will come down in a few weeks, but it will give you a chance to see whether you need more or less. If you want the room deader add more, if you want it more lively take some down. When you are happy with it, just reapply permanently by spraying both the drywall and the side of the foam that touches it.
Jan 11, 2006 05:16 pm By the way, if you need more foam, this guy has some of the best deals going. stores.ebay.com/Foam-Factory-Inc
You don't have to buy through his eBay store, he will sell direct and cut you a decent deal if you need to get a lot.
Jan 11, 2006 05:28 pm That's exactly the place where I get my foam from . I pass the place twice a day . Nice people there, and yeah... pretty darn cheap with quality being comparible to Auralex .
Jan 12, 2006 03:40 pm Awesome, the foam I have now is 2 inches thick so Ill just mess around with that.
As far as windows go is thick plexi glass a bad idea? I really have no idea how that would affect the sound of the room and someone suggested it so i thought Id see what you guys thought about it.
Thank you guys once again, im pretty sure I would have ended up wasting a bunch of my money if it werent for you guys.
Jan 12, 2006 03:48 pm Yeah that's a really bad idea. If you are going to go to the trouble of building a glassed off control booth, then it's worth doing it well.
First, keep in mind the most basic principal of soundproofing is mass and airspace. Thick glass is many times heavier than plexiglass, and will help a great deal in preventing the passage of sound.
Second, use two panes with some air space between.
Third, try to angle the pane on the sound side. There is a coefficient that can be attached to the amount of airspace between the panes, I don't remember what it is, but it only applies to the larger dimension if you have the panes angled. In otherwords, even if the panes are only 2 inches apart at the bottom, but 8 inches at the top, you will get the benefit of having 8 inches of separation all around.
I think the reason for angling the glass (besides the above) is that sound waves will more easily penetrate it if it is perpendicular to the sound source. If it is slanted, the waves are more likely to bounce off at an angle. Since you can't foam the glass, you have to do something to let the sound angle off because the glass can not absorb them as foam or padding could.
Jan 12, 2006 03:56 pm Here, I found a good article about building the window in a recording studio.
72.14.203.104/search?q=ca...indow&hl=en
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