Phonic FIREWIRE Helixboards on XP -Opinions?

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PC Warrior
Member Since: Dec 28, 2005

Hey folks, I'm finding a dearth of worthwhile reviews on these latest offerings from Phonic. Does anyone have some actual experience with these, particularly on Windows XP.

I looked into some of the Alesis boards, but these are only 44.1khz 16 bit. Obsolete in my view. Seems like everybody who walks into my studio nowadays wants 24/96.

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Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jan 05, 2006 12:17 am

Not a big fan of Phonic by any means here. I have read way to many bad things on their build quality. Cheap yes, but cheaply built as well. I read many things about faders going bad as well as knob pots going as well.

A couple users here have used their analog mixers and dont seem to have much trouble yet. But I have heard to many bad things about their gear to make me want to recomend them. As well the firewire thing is very touchy. If the drivers arent perfect you may run into loads of other system trouble.

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Jan 05, 2006 11:09 am

Noize, could you tell me where you have read these things? I'm looking all over for it and can't find anything. I'd really like to see what people with hands on experiences are saying.

The firewire thing is an interesting perspective, but the same can be said of PCI interfaces. I for one certainly have plenty of personal experience with that. USB might be more stable, but USB 1.1 is worthless for professional use, just does not have enough throughput, and unfortunately it looks like most manufacturers have decided to skip USB 2.0 and jump straight on the Firewire bandwagon. At this point, if you look at new product offerings in the field, firewire seems to have become the de-facto industry standard. I don't think that will change any time soon. Hopefully sooner or later the problems you have heard about will be worked out.


Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jan 05, 2006 10:27 pm

Google it up and you should get to some of the sites with reviews. A couple of mags that did short briefs on it were Electronic Musician, and Computer Music.

Well, my PCI interfaces run very stable, extremely low latency. All my interfaces are 24/192 capable. I dont have to worry about them crashing my recording software, or just plain pukeing their guts out when I install something or update something.

As well USB 2.0 is a bit faster then firewire, more stable/reliable. But that may change, but not soon enough for me. You wont see me jumping on the firewire bandwagon.

AS for the Alesis gear, I am not sure were you got the spec but their new firewire stuff will do 24/48. That info I just got out of their add in Future Music magazine.

So far the Tascam and Mackie stuff seem to be the most reliable at this point. Or at least they are offering driver updates on a regular basis to keep them current, and justify their prices. I like the idea of the Tascam and Mackie stuff being expandable and not a dead end one piece of gear and your done.

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Jan 10, 2006 01:15 pm

I erred on the Alesis board, you are right it's 24/48. Where I want to go is 24/96 at least. I'm giving up on the mixer/audio interface idea. Just too expensive if I go with quality gear.

I finally found a few threads on the Phonic stuff, it pretty much scared me off, looks like you were right about that too.

By the way, don't be fooled by the USB 2.0 480mbps vs the Firewire 400mpbs rating. It's misleading, USB uses much more overhead than Firewire. Under bench testing firewire outperforms it by about 2 to 1. As you say, google it up, you might find it surprising.

Even more interesting to me is that firewire 800 while faster than firewire 400, it's not twice as fast, I think the bench testing results I saw were like 20-30% faster.

I don't really want to trust what the salesmen in the music stores are telling me. They are telling me that the firewire drivers for the latest stuff like Presonus firepod etc are very stable, but I know they'd say anything to make their commission.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jan 10, 2006 01:17 pm

That's part of the reason I don't even GO to music stores any more...I go to one store, where I know the owner...and not even there very often.

Of course, I guess not having time and not being in need of any new gear kinda helps too...

Member
Since: Oct 23, 2005


Jan 25, 2006 12:34 pm

I use the Phonic Helix 18 Firewire board and have had no problems with it, as far as using it as a firewire interface. I took it out of the box when I got it, loaded up the drivers in my P4 2.80ghz desktop with 1 gig of RAM and had no glitches with windows xp at all. Same thing with my Toshiba laptop that is also P4 with 1 gig of RAM. I use both Sonar 2.2 and Audition 1.5. Also use Sound Forge 8.0b. So far I've had no problems streaming up to 9 tracks of audio to either of the multitrack software progs that I use.
I hear a lot of bashing of Phonic on the forum pages and it is true, it's not the sharpest tool in the shed when it come to PA equipment. There are lots of better boards out there. But, Keep in mind that a firewire signal is only passing through the gain knob of each channel. Therefore, volume sliders, EQ settings, Digital Effects, AUX sends have nothing to do with the firewire signal. I's a whole seperate process that just uses the MIC pres of each channel to transfer a digital signal to the DAW software on the computer that's unmolested by any of the other processes.
Now, when you consider that supposedly you can send a total of 18 independant signals to 18 tracks on your DAW (and I've successfully done half of these) with this board, that's a pretty good back for the buck when you consider the price of the board.
And, if you happen to need a utility mixer for some portable job in the meantime, you get the board with the deal. Sometimes you just need a mixer to do a little outside job where total pristine quality doesn't really matter. Jon

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Jan 25, 2006 12:55 pm

Jon,

Hey thanks for this info. I was really looking to hear from someone who had some real world experience with this specific line of gear.

Don't get me wrong, the opinions of others here are valuable and I appreciate them all, but there's no replacement for hands on experience.

One thing in your post here did confuse me though. As I read it, you seem to be saying that the faders, eq, effects etc are bypassed instead of being sent on to the computer. Or am I reading it wrong?

Maybe what you mean is that they get applied BEFORE the firewire signal is sent.

Could you please clarify it a bit?

Thanks,
Phil

Member
Since: Oct 23, 2005


Jan 28, 2006 05:39 pm

Phil,

Yes, the firewire signal is totally independant of everything else. the only thing that is controlled by the board is the channel Gain control for each channel's pre amp.

Phonics theory and assumption is that the goal in most recording software is to record tracks in as pure and clean a manner as possible without FX or EQ. These can then be added by the software plugins. It's actually the same theory as the Mackie Onyx mixer.

So, you could actually send up to 16 channel signals by firewire to the DAW software and still send a totally different mix out of the board via the main outs at the same time if you wanted to do so.

It has 2 firewire returns to the board in stereo that are automatically routed to the Firewire input control which you may route to the headphone plug which also goes to the control room out. This can also be assigned to the main out or AUX 1 out. Therefore eliminating the need for a sound card if you wish. It has great sound quality in my studio monitors.

The board in itself, as a PA board is not the best in the world by some standards, which I guess is why it gets bashed a lot by some. But they seem to miss the point that it's actually two pieces of equipment for the price of one, plus a sound card. I have used the board for a stage monitor mix at a country club gig I did a couple weeks ago and it worked fine for that.

With all the gear I've spent a fortune for that I have in the closet gathering cobwebs, I've considered this a bargain at under $500. because it actually worked right out of the box with the drivers on the disc that came with it and hasn't crashed yet. Plus, I called Phonic before I bought it and talked with a Tech Support guy who answered all my questions without listening to elevator music for 20 minutes to get him. Hope this helps you a little. Jon


Member
Since: Jan 31, 2006


Jan 31, 2006 11:06 pm

Hi Jon, just following this thread and I'd like one more thing clarified if you could :)

When you send the output to your PC/Laptop does it capture the fader settings or absolutely nothing other than the gain control?

My hope was that you could find a good mix using the board and send it to your PC which would in-turn would capture the fader settings (if not the e.q., effects, etc. which I'm not too concerned about).

If you could clarify (more than you already have!) I would appreciate it.

Thanks, Buskerdu

PC Warrior
Member
Since: Dec 28, 2005


Feb 01, 2006 12:44 pm

Yes Jon, please pick up on Buskerdu's post. It seems to me that it's pretty poinless if it does not at least pick up the faders, at least for me anyway.

Aside from price, what attracted me to it in the first place was the notion of using the faders. It's rather difficult to manipulate large numbers of faders in software. I do have a greate fader control device, but it has to be mapped one by one. It's kind of a pain and causes me to waste a lot of time.

Plus not all sound cards will let you map the inputs to a control surface.

Member
Since: Oct 23, 2005


Feb 02, 2006 11:28 am

Quote:Buskerdu: "When you send the output to your PC/Laptop does it capture the fader settings or absolutely nothing other than the gain control?"

For firewire output to computer, the only thing that has any affect on the signal is the channel gain control. So, what you get is 16 channels of clean direct firewire input to computer going out of what I think are pretty good preamps, and 2 firewire outputs from computer back to the board, which is actually a very good quality sound card. There are no other features or advantages such as automation, etc.

As for the mixer, it's nothing more than an average board. Quality wise as far as the mixer goes, I have an Alesis Studio 24 board that I've had for several years that I run into a Fostex D160 recorder and as far as I can tell right now, the Phonic mixer is about the same as the alesis. Can't tell you whether it will last as long or not.

I originally bought one of the new Alesis Firewire boards and had all kinds of driver problems and PC crashes and could get no help from their tech support with it so I returned it and began doing a lot of research.

I decided on the Phonic Helix 18 because I talked with their Tech support at great length first and I figured at least I would have 16 firewire channels (that work very well with no problems) an extra, decent quality sound card for any of the 3 computers in my studio that I plug it into and if I need it, an extra sub mixer for a stage monitor system or whatever. I figured, cost wise....that was a pretty good bang for the buck at $459.00 compared to the price of the other Firewire boxes that are out there that have no other features.

I have a small project stuio and have been doing custom background track work for beauty pageant contestants (Miss Alabama, Miss America, etc). for about 15 years. Most of what I have always done has been sequencing and I have a system for that work that has an automated mixer, so I can understand your interest in Automation.

I have started doing some video work shooting local bands on stage for use by them with the end product being in the form of DVD for promotion purposes. I needed something that would give me the capability of getting enough inputs at one time into the laptop and Audition software that's clean. After that I can transfer to the desktop as WAV files and mixdown as I wish for an audio track to import and sync into Premier Pro for video.

This is probably more info than anyone cares about, but it kind of explains why I made the Helix choice. It gave me the most for the money and does what I need it to do. So, as to those who say Phonic mixers are poor. That matters not to me so that's not an argument. All I know is the firewire drivers are good and work right out of the box. When I read the forums and research. A lot of the others are having big driver problems as well as other things.

Hope this will help in your decisions. Jon

Member
Since: Aug 10, 2006


Aug 10, 2006 10:25 pm

Jon, I recently bought the phonic helix board and I am having trouble with Adobe Audition in multitrack, my choices for inputs are 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc... how can I separate these for track 1 to be channel 1, track 2 channel 2, etc., my other soundcard is a Audigy Platinum Pro but when using the mixer I'm using that as my sound card. Please Help.

Thanks. Zac.

Member
Since: Nov 23, 2005


Aug 10, 2006 11:46 pm

Seems to me as technology advances, the "lag-time" between market introduction and actual relatively error-free usability will lessen. General rule of thumb .. 1 1/2 to 2 years after new products hit the market. For 2 reasons 1) It lets all the test-monkeys work out the glitches. I used to buy the latest, greatest and got burned, I even brought some serious flaws to manufacturers' attention which helped initiate change in a few products. and Man I wish I had those countless hours of precious time-wasted-life back! 2) The next greatest may/will come out and you may find your board to be the predecssor of a much more valuable item. I've had firewire troubles but I would imagine that they are slowly becoming further a fewer between.

jdwoodward . . good points made.
Most firewire driver problems stem from the system having issues with security updates and soforth. If anyone remembers or was using a firewire device when the huge service pack 2 update from MS came out years back, it wreaked major havoc on video firewire and wuite a few firewire audio interfaces... And like jdwoodward
mentioned, I t would be VERY wise to find a company that has a very knowledgable tech support staff who is willing to have indepth conversaions about firewire issues before purchasing. I say this because I was totally left out in the cold whin I had problems with my MOTU interfaces. Godspeed.

Cone Poker
Member
Since: Apr 07, 2002


Aug 11, 2006 12:49 am

I use a phonics analog board, and really I hate it. The preamps have something to be desired, there is no headroom, and the power supply cable keeps messing up on me. That said it was a good entry level peice of kit, but I am going to be replacing it soon.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Aug 11, 2006 05:55 pm

Onewayska, to do what you want you simply assing 1/2 to 2 seperate tracks and then pan one channel from the board all the way left which would be 1 and then the other all the way to the right which would of course be 2. It follows the same all the way down the line, 3/4 5/6 and so on. They will essentially be mono tracks then in the end.

Noize

Member
Since: Aug 10, 2006


Aug 12, 2006 12:26 am

Noize...Got it...Thanks, it was a driver issue.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Aug 12, 2006 05:17 pm

Glad you got it sorted ou then.

Wannabe
Member
Since: Oct 07, 2006


Oct 07, 2006 03:50 pm

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I have been here lot's of times. I have been reading about this board, www.zzounds.com/a--884907...mp;form=search. Also was wondering if jdwoodward could post some pics of his studio. And maybe some audio. Thanks!

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


May 10, 2007 05:40 pm

I have to agree that although in some ways it's a cheap and cheerful mixer it does give you a lot for the money. You'd have to spend a fair bit more to get 16 inputs and 2 outputs plus a seperate mixer or selection of mic pre-amps.

Also, I've found that you can actually record the EQ and effects (although only on two tracks at a time). This can be useful because you might want to add compression - or other outboard effects)on the way in (particularly on vocals) but the effects inserts are also after the firewire outputs in the chain.

Basically, route the channel you're using to the L/R bus and pan it hard left or right (or one each way for two signals). In your software select inputs 15 for one track and 16 for the other. These firewire inputs are from the master L/R bus so you get any EQ and effects on the recording. This would also work for something like a live 'as is' recording at a gig or rehearsal.

Hope this helps

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 01, 2007 03:52 pm

Well, I have read nothing but good stuff about the Helix firewire line. They have a 3 year warranty and they have a lot of the same specs as Mackie.
I just bought one and will be hooking it up tonight, the Helix 12 firewire.
You can look at my profile to see what gear I've owned/own/tried.
I will be very honest in my review of this product. Never go on hearsay always go on experience! The guys in Europe love these!

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jun 01, 2007 04:33 pm

Quote:
The guys in Europe love these!


That sounds like hearsay to me =).

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 01, 2007 05:55 pm

Not hearsay, some mates of mine!

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 02, 2007 10:25 am

I received my Helix 12 firewire yesterday and hooked it up last night. Set up was a breeze! The absolute easiest I've ever done and the amazing thing is I set it up on my absolute worst computer for audio interface compatibility,my "AMD2800 with the dreaded SIS chipset". I was only able to record a few guitar tracks because I had a power outage but the tracks were very clean. Drivers were great no problems with WDM or ASIO. Seems well built.It looks very promising, especially at this price!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 02, 2007 10:01 pm

Well, big up to Phonics then for having an install of firewire that worked even with one of the most incompatable chipsets around. I'll give them prop's for that indeed.

What mother board was the SIS on that you are using?

And an AMD 2800, if it is an XP Barton core is one of the better CPU's out there. It is an overclockers dream chip and is stable as hell.

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 03, 2007 07:59 am

The Motherboard is ECS M848, yes and it is the XP Barton.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 03, 2007 07:53 pm

Its a good stable CPU then so that is a plus. Not sure on the ECS mobo though. But if you got the Phonics unit working on it then I am guessing they did something right as most firewire units won't run on the SIS chip.

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 03, 2007 09:10 pm

Actually, I won't be using this PC for much recording, I've built a new Intel system.
I really beleive that until some of these companies get it together to be able to use other configurations/motherboards/chip sets etc. That the only safe way for any serious musician to go, to eliminate long nights of cursing and computer crashes is to either go with all Intel stuff or all Mac. With AMD you take your chances because a lot of the chip sets in the MB's are not compatible with audio stuff. It's really not AMD's fault, it's the everyone wants to sell an audio interface group who's to blame! They are so vague in their ads,they tell that their units work with Mac or PC and that's about it. I've tested a lot of what's out there and this little Helix gets 2 thumbs way up and a hidy hidy ho!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 03, 2007 09:20 pm

I switched to MSI (Micro Star International) mother boards and could not be happier with the outcome using AMD in that. I don't foresee me going back to Intel anytime soon though as the AMD chips have served me more then well over the last 10 years or so. After switching to the MSI mobo's I haven't had a lick of trouble other then what I caused by my self. They have made it extremely simple to shut down parts of their boards you simply don't need to free up data flow through the Northbridge and for me that means stable running audio and video applications from the start.

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 04, 2007 07:58 am

That's good to know. The only way we are going to be able to get things to work is through the sharing of our own experiences. I've always had AMD processors and loved them but always had problems with audio applications.This will be my first Intel system.
What chipset does the MSI use?

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 04, 2007 10:14 pm

It uses a couple different ones. There are a couple left running VIA chipsets but most all the high end boards now run the Nvidea nForce chipset. That is what is in mine and I haven't had a lick of trouble. They run an application called Live Update which can go as far as flashing the bios live while the windows is running. I used to worry that it might torch the board doing that but it works flawlessly. As well it does its own driver updates and everything. I like the fact I can also over clock and change settings right from windows as well. The application they use puts windows in a sort of stand by mode and heads straight for the bios. Nice little utility if your into messing around with things.

denmanjum
Member
Since: May 27, 2007


Jun 05, 2007 01:10 pm

Hmmm, may have to find a new MB for the AMD2800.
Thanks!

Member
Since: Apr 01, 2008


Apr 01, 2008 12:23 pm

Onewayska How did You manage to solve the problem ( separating each channel instead of 1/2, 3/4 etc. combination. I have the same problem with Sonar 6 Producer edition.

Mikey Spencer
Member
Since: Apr 26, 2007


Apr 01, 2008 06:42 pm

i have one but i used it with am imac. it works great. for the price its worth it. yeah, there are bad reviews and some things on it do seem kind of cheaply made but look at the features and the price then you'll see that its worth it. as long as you take care of it ull be fine

Member
Since: Mar 21, 2011


Mar 21, 2011 02:04 am

Just wanted to add my two cents worth on the phonic helix board incase anyone out there has unanswered questions ...

I have owned one for about 3 years and bought it to record my band in our studio.Did lots of reading prior to purchase but nothing is the same as using ! It is and was my first foray into computer recording so I was very excited about it. So how did it go ? Well we did record our debut album on it but there were so many problems with the board that it took a full year longer than it sound have.
Firstly the instructions with the board are so bad that you really need an experienced instructor just to show you how to activate the channels.
Secondly the firewire connection suffers from massive drop out to the point were a planned 4 hours of recording is whittled down to 30 mins.
Thirdly the power supply inside the desk blew up after 4 months and the support was so poor that it took 6 months for them to fix it with no replacement board available.....
When I did get the board back the dropouts were even worse to the point where we all hated the recording sessions because we got nothing done.
I read and read all about firewire and was convinced my computer card was the problem , even ordered a special TI chip card as I read they are the best (yes the card is good) but that didn't help the dropouts ! Tried setting up a special computer profile with USB ports disabled and programs switched off to help with conflicts in drivers but that didn't help either.
We persevered and did finish the album but my patients grew so thin with the desk that whilst trying to get it to work one day about 4 months ago I lost my cool and decided to open it up to see if I could see anything wrong inside. Warranty was long expired so I had nothing to lose !
Best thing I ever did. Not much to see inside and very simple computer connections to the firewire I/O.
Next I got a can of carburettor cleaner and sprayed all the connections (undid them,sprayed, re-did) and then put it back together .Bingo the thing now works like a charm ! Infact I love using it .
The sound is awesome.So easy to use .No latency.No noise.Pre amps are clean and powerful .
Maybe my board is newer or something but as far as the fader effecting the output to the computer there is a pre/post firewire switch so you can choose which goes to the computer pre fader or post.
I have struggled with the effects on this board, they sound nice but need some serious routing to be used in recording and I haven't got that to work !
Overall I'm now really excited about doing more recording with this board as it sounds great and has heaps of functions.I would recommend that if you buy one get yourself a can of carby cleaner and keep your connections clean ! The reliability factor however is a big downer to the point I would recommend getting another brand. Sorry Phonic.Love the sound but too much trouble.

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