Dec 23, 2005 06:57 am Great site by the way. I love it :)
SM57 to preamp to soundcard
Posted on Dec 23, 2005 06:48 am
Drizzt
Member Since: Dec 23, 2005
If I want to record my guitar playing by placing an SM57 in front of my amp, do I connect it like this:
SM57 >>> XLR balanced to XLR balanced cable >>> preamp (audio buddy) >>> 1/4" TRS to 1/4" TRS cable >>> 1/8" TRS adapter >>> Line-in on soundcard
OR, do I have to keep the wiring mono since the SM57 is mono.
SM57 >>> XLR balanced to XLR balanced cable >>> preamp (audio buddy) >>> 1/4" TS to 1/4" TS cable >>> 1/8" TS adapter >>> Line-in on soundcard.
Thanks in advance.
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Dec 23, 2005 08:41 am Welcome to HRC,
Both ways should work the same. I don't think the audio buddy will put out a stereo signal, so using a TRS will only use one part of the cable.
If that's true, then only one side of the stereo cable will carry signal into your soundcard. The software will only be picking up signal on one side, giving signal in only one of your input meters in your recording software.
In your rec software, you should be able to tell the app to make two mono tracks, instead of one stereo track, from the incoming signal. Then just delete the empty one, and you're all set.
Dec 23, 2005 10:27 am 1/8" ? Methinks you have a standard sound card in your PC. You may run into some limitations sooner, or later. Probably sooner. There are some relatively good cards to be had for about $100. I use the E-Mu PCI0404 @ $99, and there are others about around the same price. Such a card will allow you to go into your PC with two balanced 1/4" direct from your Audio Buddy.
Dec 23, 2005 03:05 pm Hey Drizzt, another Welcome to HRC.
YA, the Audio Buddy is 2 seperate mono channels so if you are plugging the mic into one of them you will only be going out that same channel with a signal. But you do have the rest of the chain connection's correct.
One thing you will want to check on is if your audio card is capable of Full Duplex, which is the ability to record and playback at the same time.
Dec 23, 2005 04:38 pm Thanks for the responses!
Few more questions then:
1. If the audio buddy doesn't put out a stereo signal, which of those cable set ups would be best then? Are both considered balanced? Or should I stick with the TRS cables when going from the preamp to the soundcard?
2. As for my audio card, yea it's some basic mother board one. Realtek HD Audio or something. I am.. I think.. quite sure it can record and do playback at the same time, as that's how I've been recording on Audacity.
The only problem was that it would be somewhat buzzy when I did that, but isn't that due to the fact that I was using a cheap computer mic at the time?
It was also buzzy when not using a preamp and just the SM57 to the mic input of the soundcard.
Will getting the preamp and going through the line-in get rid of the buz when overlapping tracks? Or is it my soundcard all along? (It was actually more buzzy when using the SM57 than using the comp mic- but I was using an unbalanced XLR to 1/4 TS Cable with a TRS adapter- perhaps a horrible set up.)
Edit: Oh, and it wasn't buzzy when you play the individual tracks. It was when you played three or more ontop of eachother, you'd start to hear static. But if playing any of those by themselves- it would be semi fine.
3. If I do keep the first set up I listed above (TRS cables after the preamp), will that allow me to record a mono signal through two channels? I probably said that wrong, but what I mean is, on Audacity you choose your preference to how many channels your recording will have. I've, up till now, been using "2 (Stereo)", with the top and bottom channels being identical. But this is better than simply doing 1 channel, because for some reason it will only pick up so much sound, and the frequency will be cut off at a very unreasonable level. So if using TRS cables after the preamp will remain balanced, I'd prefer to use this set up.
Edit: *gulp*
Looking through Sounds and Audio Devices Properties...
I have Realtek High Definition Audio, and, Unimodem Half-Duplex Audio Device.
Alright so we've established I need a new soundcard. Aside from that, what about my other questions?
Dec 23, 2005 05:17 pm I was looking for that EMU sound card you spoke of, Tallchap, but searching through the Futureshop and Compusmart websites (closest electronic stores), I can only find Soundblaster and Dynex.
Does the Audigy 2 Value have full duplex? I'm looking at its specs but it just doesn't say.
Dec 23, 2005 08:38 pm Well honestly the TRS cable's are a waste right now going into your stock sound card. It is not using the balanced input signal for anything. So any benifit from balanced cable's in the signal chain is lost upon going into the PC sound card.
Dec 24, 2005 05:20 am Okay I bought the preamp, the cables, and the Audigy 2 Value soundcard.
Everything is PERFECT.
There was a bit of a freak out at first... cause when choosing the playback and recording to be from the new soundcard.. it would of course actually play back and record the older tracks. So I could press record, play nothing, and it would make a copy of what I played earlier. This of course didn't fly for me, and caused a bit of a buz.
So I made the microphone come from the new soundcard, and left the speakers coming from the on-board soundcard. This seems to be much better. Though I don't quite understand why...
How come only the soundcard with the mic going in has to be full duplex? Or does this completely not matter since I'm essentially using two soundcards now?
Dec 24, 2005 05:17 pm Hah, everything is far from perfect. It only seems to sound good without distortion. The second I am recording anything with distortion, and I play it, it sounds so damn bassy, and therefore buzzy.
I've tried different mic placements, adjusting the 'gain' on the Audio Buddy (which gets even more buzzy the more I increase it), changing the volume of the amp... I tried changing the max frequency on Audacity (which is what I'm using) to 15000 to match the SM57.. I tried grayscaling, whatever that does..
I'm out of ideas. I don't know what I'm doing wrong anymore. I got a good mic, the right cables, a decent sound card and preamp... any help would be appreciated.
Perhaps someone familiar with the audiobuddy could tell me what I should put the gain to. And how far from the amp I should have the SM57. And if anyone is familiar with Audacity, the correct settings. I'm so damn frustrated...
Dec 24, 2005 06:12 pm welcome Drizzt,
try placing the mic more towards the center of the speaker to get more highs then lows... hmm... also keep the gain down on the preamp enough to where it doesnt distort the preamp.
what software r u using? if it has an EQ u can probalby Q out the frequencies that a resonating.
Also, sometimes strings resonate bad on some notes so u could just have to change strings. this mainly happens to bass and electric guitars on distortion when palm muting.
if its not those then i cant think of anything but a bad mic or PCI
Dec 24, 2005 07:21 pm Yea I have the microphone dead centre of the amp- about half an inch away from touching. I have the gain on the preamp very low.
This seems to be a decent set up, and allows me to get an alright sound. I've been cutting out some of the lower frequencies from the rhythm guitar, which seems to be working a bit better.
But again, when I overlap tracks, I will get a buzz. Two lead tracks will work fine together. But add a third, and buzz begins.
Also, anything more than two rhythms going, get a buzz.
Have a rhythm and 2 leads, buzz.
I'm using Audacity.
It seems the only way to get rid of the buzz is to make the tracks quieter, but then the sound is muffled and not clean. If I listen to the individual tracks, they sound quite good. But when adding them all together... I get that static sound, as if the combined volume or frequencies exceed something.
What should I have the sample rate at, and the sample format at? Right now I have it at 44100 Hz, 32-bit float.
"Real time sample rate converter" and "High Quality sample rate converter" is set to "High Quality sinc interpolation." And Real Time dither and High Quality Dither are both set to "Triangle".
Max frequency is set to 100,000.
Minimum of dB mode display range is set to -36 dB.
None of that makes sense to me, but if anyone knows what I should set those too, or has any other suggestions, I'd appreciate it. And what about the mic input level? Full? Half?
Edit: This is what Audacity tells you to do. "Maximum Frequency: Set this value anywhere from a couple of hundred hertz to half the sample rate (i.e. 22050 Hz if the sample rate is 44100 Hz)."
Yes, it will get rid of the buzz, but that's because when you record with this new max frequency, EVERYTHING sounds quieter. Increasing the gain on the individual tracks, or adding more tracks, turning up the amp, or increasing the gain on the preamp will result in the same buzzing eventually.
Dec 24, 2005 10:40 pm Well your signal chain is the problem then. Not the auiod interface or the software, although they are suffering from it.
Starting from the beggining of your signal chain, the guitar amp itself. You should have the volume up to a level that will give the mic a good signal without having to drive the pre amp very hard. Next is the pre amp. This level should be set as high as it can go without clipping, the unit has little clip lights on the front so watche them. When they blink, turn it down just a tiny bit. It is OK if they blink on occasion, but only on occasion. Next, the input of the audio card's interface should be set, again as high as it will allow. You will probably have to do that with the window's sound control panel. Unless the Audigy has its own panel then use that. Now in your recording application you will need to set the channel input for recording to a level that should by all rights be slightly less then what you just set the audio interface to.
Rule of thumb is the beggining of the signal chain is set as loud as it can go without distorting, then each succesive device in the chain is set just bit lower as you go down the chain. This should eliminate any Buzz or Distortion. Honestly the Audigy is not a card that can accept a hot signal at all or it will puke on your sound. The ;audio buddy is not to blame either as if it is set correctly it will not buzz or distort, even if set to the max. I know as I use one here on occasion and have set it to the max with some low level old mic's.
Now as far as using your PC sound card to moniter after recording with your Audigy. That itself is probably the main culprit in the bad sound you are getting. You cant do that and expect good sound.
Here is what I would almost be certainis the problem you are having with the Audigy duplicating what is being played back. It is nothing more then a game card and it sets itself to the windows default settings when it is installed. What that means is you need to go into the windows sound control panel and open the options for recording. You will probably find one of the boxes is checked to Record what you hear or just what you hear. If that is the case, and it probably is uncheck this box and you will now be set.
Hope this helps you out.
Merry Xmass.
Dec 24, 2005 11:06 pm Thanks for the reply.
Amp: cranked (not VERY loud, but definately loud enough for the mic to get the signal).
Preamp: cranked until I saw the clip flashing, then turned it down a bit.
Looked for everything involving microphone input: cranked to full.
Result: A chainsaw going off.
I couldn't find the "record what you hear" thing in any windows properties (or any boxes that could be checked or unchecked, for that matter, but would like to know where this is) ,
but I did find that option in Audacity- which got rid of the duplicating problem.
But again... it seems toooooo loud. I don't understand why everyone says to turn everything to max, or near to it. It's like a gunshot going off if I do that! :(
Edit: NM found the advanced options. But still... the buzzing :( And also, what my mic picks up is now coming through my speakers. I tried muting the Play Control's Line-In mute, but that not only ended the playing through the speakers, but any Line-in input. And what does Record Without Monitering mean..
Dec 24, 2005 11:39 pm Record without monitering means you will not get the chainsaw going off. What you got was feedback loop going and that caused the nasty sounds.
Also, my referances to as loud as needed didnt mean cranked up to the max. It means level's up to the needed level to get a recordable signal and keep the meter's up at around -3dB. Youcna set them slightly below that to give yourself more headroom as well. I usually record as hot as possible. But then again, I am using a much higher quality interface as well. That in itself makes a huge differance.
I suggest you keep trying with the levels and it will get there eventually.
Dec 24, 2005 11:54 pm Ah yes. The record without monitering got rid of it while I'm recording.
Well, unless my amp is very low, or the preamp is very low, or the line-in is very low, it's extremely loud, and gives me the chainsaw.
If i take the preamp and put it just below clipping level- chainsaw.
If I have the amp loud, and the preamp anything higher than a tad off of the lowest- chainsaw.
Do you know anything about the audacity preferences I listed above? Maybe there's something there we can work with...
Dec 25, 2005 12:06 am Can I send you a small audio file (to your pigpen email) of the "best" sound I can get? It's with a simple rhythm, and two leads. You will hear the buzz I speak of.
(This is with the preamp turned down very low, amp at a reasonable volume, and line-in input at full.
Dec 25, 2005 12:38 am OK, I think I may have spotted something when re-reading your preferances post. You should not have the output of the Pre amp going into the mic input of the sound card, that is really bad and is probably what is causing the buzz. You need to send the output of the pre amp into the LINE IN of the sound card. Remember, Mic inputs are for mic's only. Line inputs are for using with line ouputs from other devices. And as well, make sure if there is a choice of settings between -4dB Pro level and +10dB Consumer level that you choose the -4dB as that is what the output of the audio buddy is at.
If your line in input is at full then you are not getting the signal loud enough before it gets there. Try turning the pre amp up a little bit at a time untill you can trun down the line input level and still get a good signal.
That is how the chain should go, with the first signal being higher then the next. Each piece in the signal chain should be a little lower then the one before it.
Dec 25, 2005 12:44 am Yup I'm going into the Line In, not the Mic In.
I'm trying to find that -4dB thing you are talking about right now. Any ideas where that would be? Audacity has an output volume and input volume, but both are on a scale (.1 to 1)
Did you get the audio clip I sent?
Dec 25, 2005 01:14 am Yes, I got it. I will give it a listen in the morning though.
Dec 25, 2005 01:18 am Alright thanks. (Found the db control in the Audigy mixer. Set everything that had to do with line-in to as close to -4 as I could. Will play around with the amp and preamp tomorrow.
It sounds wonderful without distortion. Perfect levels. It's just as soon as I press down on my little digitech grunge pedal that all hell breaks loose.
Well, have a good Christmas. Talk to you tomorrow or soon.
Dec 25, 2005 05:23 am Okay, I thought I'd do a bit more research before asking any more questions, and decided to watch the dB levels during playback and recording more closely.
It's clipping. That's what is causing all this. I didn't think it was since the individual tracks weren't clipping, but when overlapping, they sure do.
Well it all boils down to this question then:
If I have a good signal, and can play a single track without it being clipped by either the preamp or the software's indicator...
how can I overlapp tracks, knowing well that the combined sound will go over 0dB?
Because if I'm making individual tracks as loud and clear as I can (just below 0dB), ... the overlapping is always going to break over and clip the darn thing.
If I record with lower gain and volumes on the amp- instead of getting the clear sound I wanted from each track, I'm left with a dull, muffled, blend of some half-assed recordings.
Is there no way to combine all of the clear, crisp sounds of the individual tracks that are dancing on the edge of being clipped? I can do it easily without distortion, but not with!
Dec 25, 2005 06:41 pm You simply turn your main output level down in audacity. That is how the stereo mix will sound. You can also lower individual track levels as well to get the mains level down below clipping.
Dec 25, 2005 10:30 pm Alright I think I got the hang of it. Thanks for all your help.
Dec 27, 2005 01:38 am The reason you want everything to come into your mixing program as loud as it can be, is so that when you record the sound "guitar amp for example" the noise to sound ratio is small. So that you have a lot of guitar sound and very little mic self noise. You may not hear the mic self niose at first, but once oyu layer 32 tracks mic self niose can become a problem.
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