vocals!

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Member Since: Jan 18, 2003

i am trying to finish a song for once and since i never, ever make it this far, ive got alot of questions about vocal mixing.

1. i hold the mic while singing because i dont have a stand. i need a pop filter solution. i wanna make a filter i can clamp to the mic itself. just checking: panty hose is what you use for pop filters? **if youve made one, how many layers do you use? and whats good to use for the frame?** maybe one of those sewing rings or whatever.

2. my voice sometimes sounds 'narrow' and annoying. it has problems inherent in the midrange. i saw in another thread noize's idea to create several copies of the vocal and pan differently and alter EQ, so im going to try that. this is particularly annoying. hmm. this is not even a question. so does anyone else have this prob? what do you do to fix it. is it cheating to 'add bass' to your voice or really mess with the EQ?

3. compressor: anytime i do do vocals, i am always strongly tempted to slap on a compressor, on HIGH-SQUASH, which gives you 'breathiness,' which i am neutral about (its an ok effect sometimes). but the main thing it does for me is it evens out my voice so much that it actually helps me sing more smoothly. i.e. i dont overcompensate on certain syllables just so i can hear myself, know what i mean? and this way i can sing really really quietly, which leads to much more CONTROL. all in all, i find it really hard to sing well without a compressor with a high ratio. problem is that i do this all the time. is that bad? **if not extreme settings, then what's a reasonable vocal comp setting?** because maybe i could use a plugin instead of my pod, and use it as an insert effect, which i have never done. then i could use it to help the actual singing and later remove it. but i would still need a final setting to use. so, whats reasonable? basically i just dont want to be doing something retarded and learn bad habits from the start.

5. saw in another thread that you guys all seem to record vox in mono. if you double track, why do you do it, and how, and what effect are you seeking when you do? 'fatness?'

i know i had more q's but these seem the main ones. reverb is buggin' me right now but ill figure that one out somehow. i know its gotta be real short usually.

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A small pie will soon be eaten
Member
Since: Aug 26, 2004


Dec 06, 2005 03:22 pm

It might be difficult to clamp any sort of filter on a MIC if you holding it. JUst get one of those foam pop filters and whack it over the end maybe.

In terms of double tracking mono vox. Sometimes if you dont double track the vocals can sound thin and sit on top of a mix rather than in it at the front.

i 'think' the only reason you would record in stereo is if you were using an external stereo effects unit or something.

the answer to Q 2 & 5 might be the same i think.

Gotta rush to work, good thread this one. it's great to hear different peoples methods for recording VOX.

The biggest vox tip i have though, if you think it might have too much reverb, it does!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 06, 2005 03:24 pm

I almost never double track vocals personally. Compression is necessary in vocals, but how much you compress is different for every voice...so you'll need to experiament. Compression, done correctly, will add the power and "fatness" you need...

The sewing rings work well for popless things, I would highly recommend you spend a couple bucks and get a stand...it's damn near impossible to get a decent vocal take while holding the mic.

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Dec 06, 2005 04:26 pm

I love double tracking vocals, but for the effect, not the fattening. Its like a chorus effect, sort of fattening.... but it just sounds cool.

If someone is sounding really horrible I'll take a V. high Q 12 dB boost and slowly sweep it through the freq. range. The problem freq. will usually resonate. Problem areas that I've encountered are in the 700-1.3 kHz range and low mids as well. I've learnt to not take too much away though because you loose some of the character of the voice. A good high shelf at 12 kHz sounds good most of the time as well. Also, what sounds good to you might not sound good to someone else, vice versa.

As for the reverb, try usuing a longer pre delay and shorter reverb time. It gives the effect of a longer reverb time without the messy.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Dec 06, 2005 11:06 pm

K, I'll jump in on the low end EQ thing. No it isnt cheating. If you can fit it so it doesnt sound fake, then it is OK. I know a lot of folk's that want to have that barrel voice but they just cant. So ya a bit of modest EQ in the lower end can help that out.

Also forty you might try adding a very gentle chorus effect, maybe 2 pole as it will be a bit milder. You dont want to use it like you would on a guitar track, just a smidgen to add character. Dont go the Ozzy route and crank the regen full, then ya gotta live with that voice for the rest of your life.

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Dec 06, 2005 11:14 pm

Hey noize, I've heard the expression 'pole' before but can't remember what it means.. Could you elaborate?

Hello!
Member
Since: Jan 12, 2004


Dec 07, 2005 07:38 am

OK Forty...you're speaking to someone who is a guitarist who sings ;-) !! NOT a singer...bud, I hear ya. I had/have some of these probs but here's my advices:

1) Pop shield...as Bleako says, get a foam pop shield. They cost a few quid (maybe less than $10 anyway) and put it over the top of the MIC. Job Done...cheap version - muffle the sound a little with whatever you have to hand...it's not ideal but alas, the pop shield is useful so if you can, buy one and that takes care of that prob.

2) I ALWAYS hold the mic as I tend to grip it real hard and RIPPPPP when I sing...the only method I really know unless its a direct opposite ballad, but I still hold the mic. I never use the stand...I dont cause excessive hand noise (moving it about) so, it works and I am adamant, improves my vox...this is why you will need the pop shield if you keep holding it as Bleak said...but, thats what I do and have done on every song I have ever recorded.

3) EQ - My method of tracking/mixing involves doing the whole backing track first, singing live over it then mixing it. I set the volume so its not peaking and just a little too quiet then use a 30 band graphic equaliser and mix it in the song...I do this til its not obscured by anything then if needed, raise the volume level slightly but not too much...better to mix it in, that sit it on top. And aye, if you need low end, give it some...NOTHING wrong with that matey.

4) I use a compressor plugin that come with Cubase ALWAYS for every vocal I ever done. set it to "vocal" setting, tweak ever so slightly then mix (I should have put this step BEFORE 3 as I add the compressor to the vocal THEN do step 3). Whilst writing, I most always add verb too at this stage so I have - RAW VOCAL WITH COMPRESSION AND REVERB...THEN, I do step 3 above.

5) Then, if needed, I'll maybe copy/paste the whole thing and pan it but not often. In fact, nowadays, I never double track..if you listen to my double tracked songs (Dead Flowers and Candy Girl) an the rest (not double tracked) you hear the improvement...but, thats not to say NEVER double track, just be wise when doing it.

6) Most importantly...mess it up. Tear it up, mix it up, try all and everything...all the best things I ever learned, I learned thru messing with stuff til it worked. And I tell ye this, its the BEST way to do things in my honest opinion...that way, you can find the unexpected AND remember it rather than relying too much on a method or theory other than good practice generally...

Anyways, just my opinions bud...take with pinch of salt...and, good luck.

Coco.

Member
Since: Nov 28, 2005


Dec 07, 2005 08:40 am

I believe 1 Pole is 6 dB.

So I think Noize is saying 12dB quieter than program peak.

I could be wrong.

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Dec 07, 2005 11:36 am

Look for sales of mic stands. Really. They're worth their weight in gold. They go for as little as $15 around here.

The pop shield from a sewing hoop is an easy fix. One layer either side will work fine. There's a "How to" article on HRC (I'd put a comment on there about a pop-shield/shock mount combination I made).

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 07, 2005 11:43 am

Those super cheap ones will work in the studio, but don't expect them to hold up on the road...I'd hate to think about how many cheapo stands I have broke over the years getting tossed around on the road.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Dec 07, 2005 04:33 pm

im definitely with coco on the mic thing. i much prefer holding the damn thing. because i stand when i sing and let my body do whatever it needs to. sometimes i have to affect a 'stance' to get me into the mood. i do have a foam fit-over pop filter. i'll dig it up. i got the impression that it mostly killed high frequencies, though, so i stopped using it. is that true? sounds like it. i want 'air' on my vocals, so i kind of just stopped using it. but no air is better than pops, i guess.

ive never used the cubase vocal compressor. ive used my POD from day one, but i am noticing that the POD compression on voice adds a note of artificiality which i dont think i like. so ill give that a run later i guess.

thanx guys


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 07, 2005 04:35 pm

Ya, there is a certain "mood" you have to capture when singing, what I have seen done a lot is the singer just straps on a guitar while they sing, just to hold it to get in that mood...

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Dec 07, 2005 07:29 pm

Hey as for pole that is correct. But I made a big booboo as I had filter's on my mind at the time.

What I meant was VOICE not pole. A chorus uses voice's. The more voice's the fuller the sound. For a straight up lead vocal though depending on the type of music I prefer a 2 voice as stated. That way it doesnt get carried away.

But yes a pole on a filter stands for the amount of reduction/boost 1 pole is 6 dB, 2 is 12 and so on at 6dB per pole. Once you get past 4 pole it gets very hard to control the filter, but Sherman used to do it at 8 and I think 12. Those were wicked machine's indeed. But that is more in the line of synth stuff, can be used on any instrument even vox as well. If you've ever listened to Daft Punk then you have heard the Sherman filterbank's at their best. Those guys filtered almost everything.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Dec 07, 2005 08:53 pm

dB that is kinda funny. I know guy's who were just like that. They couldnt do a vocal take without hangin on to something or strapping their guitar on.

Anyonw remember a guy named Elvis. He couldnt play that guitar but spent a lot of time with it on. Did he do it for the cool factor or was it something else?

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Dec 09, 2005 02:02 am

Forty, Dude!
I'm really suprised at this post. I personaly think your vox are A+!

In this case I can only talk about what I personaly like and don't like. Please don't mis-interperate this rambling as suggestions.

I do like to use a LD on a stand with a pop filter. Not all singers need the filter, but I just feel better having it in place. My LD selection is limited so I use an Oktava on most, but a few who have exceptionaly detailed and well developed vox I will use an NT1 to get a little more of the detail. I like to use a very absorbant material behind the singer to illiminate the short verb sounds. I plain don't like eq, but I always end up using some. With the NT1, I will always reverse it's high end boost to flaten the curve. Almost all, like 99.9% of the singers I have recorded have some snafu, silibence, or something that I will end up fixing with a little eq. I have done a couple of songs of just guitar and vox where I have gotton by without compression. I really enjoyed that, but in most cases to get the vox over all of the other rumble, I end up using compression to keep the vox strong and on top so to speak. I only double track as an effect. I find it a hair more believable than chorus or echo or extended verb to get an 'airy or distant' feel if that fits in the recording. I personaly like to leave in the breathing sounds. Sometimes if they are exagerated, I will pull them down a little, but I like the emotion of the breathing sounds. I will silance out the paper crackling, foot tapping, grunting, etc. between wanted vox. Pitch corrections and attack corrections are the most painstaking, but I will overhall a vox track pretty closely for those two common problems and correct or fade as necessary.

My biggest problem with the last singer was the a physical room. No matter what room I put him in he still came out 'in a box'. Something about the boy's voice that needs a lot of room. I was able to hide the box sound with a little psp warmer, a tad bit of eq, and some mild verb, but it was just not natural and did not do his voice justice.

Anyway, happy singing!

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Dec 09, 2005 04:21 am

thanks walt. i need to start making notes. i dont know what settings i used last time at all, but the last thing i sang the vocals were at least placed sort of right in the mix and loud enough. (though there was an annoying midrange problem when i went into my high register--something that the POD was doing, not me).


Bohemian
Member
Since: May 04, 2003


Dec 09, 2005 07:30 am

hey coco,

I had the same thing as you going on here

2) I ALWAYS hold the mic as I tend to grip it real hard and RIPPPPP when I sing...the only method I really know unless its a direct opposite ballad, but I still hold the mic. I never use the stand...I dont cause excessive hand noise (moving it about) so, it works and I am adamant, improves my vox...this is why you will need the pop shield if you keep holding it as Bleak said...but, thats what I do and have done on every song I have ever recorded.


I also loved to keep it in my hand... but what I did, was put my B1 on a stand (plugged in)

and then hold a SM58 in my hand (not plugged in)
and pretend to sing in the sm58 (offcourse also in the b1 , But at least I'm holding something)
this really helps keep out unwanted "booms" in otherwise "perfect" tracks

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 09, 2005 07:32 am

presley, thats what they used to do for Jim Morrison when he recorded, gave him a dummy mic to hold and fondle and play around with while the real recording mic was out of the way so he wouldn't bump it and such...that is a great trick for being able to get your groove on and not affecting the tracking.

Bohemian
Member
Since: May 04, 2003


Dec 09, 2005 07:46 am

well... there I was thinkin' I was being all Original and stuff:P

haha ...

cool story dB... for some reason I've been listening a lot to the doors these last 2 months:)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Dec 09, 2005 07:49 am

well, I would suspect you are listening to the doors because, well, quite honestly, they still kick ***.

Bohemian
Member
Since: May 04, 2003


Dec 09, 2005 01:35 pm

yeah, I think that's it:P

audio snob
Member
Since: Jan 02, 2005


Dec 09, 2005 02:59 pm

Here's what you can do if you really want to be ghetto: If you really don't want to get a mic stand, and don't want to buy a pop filter, just put a sock over the mic. I did that for like two years. It actually works.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Dec 09, 2005 03:55 pm

i just put an ipod sock i have here on it last night. doesnt seem to stop the pops though!

wow weird little trivia about jim there! but wouldnt the dummy mic encourage you to sing in slightly-wrong directions as you move around? leading to up/down levels? youd STILL have to stay pretty still, no?

yeah the doors rock

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Dec 09, 2005 04:06 pm

The moving about thing can be a hinderance. But when you have an enginer in the control room riding the fader, (and he was good at it) its not near as noticable. Some of those mic's picked up really well as long as you were within a certain distance and I am sure they tried to keep him from wandering to far away from it.

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