Networking vs. Audio (Round 1 *ding-ding*)
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Posted on Oct 03, 2005 03:04 pm
Sirrus
Prince of Cat Ears
Member Since: Jun 17, 2004
Hey everyone. I know I promised an exciting post about cross-dressing or wearing underwear on my head after my intense newbie posting spree of the past few weeks, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for an extension on that.
After some more experimentation with playback and general functionality on my MOTU 896 HD, it has become very apparent to me that the conflict is with the wireless network adapter in my machine.
Playback and audio flow will cease (usually replaced by a shrill, sometimes rhythmic beeping noise) the higher the volume on the network card. I assume it would be possible to simply disable that card when engaged in audio-intensive activities, but I believe there has to be a better way. As stated before, other firewire devices haven't behaved so aversely under the same circumstances.
I can toy a bit more with IRQ timers and the like, but I really need to know how much is too much to ask of most machines with regard to that kind of data flow.
Bear in mind, the USB/Firewire card into which the MOTU runs is housed in the PCI slot nearest the processor (I am led to believe that is the highest priority slot in the machine).
If you need any more info to advise, I'd be happy to provide. Thanks much for bearing with me (and my expensive paperweight).
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Oct 03, 2005 03:09 pm Well, this isn't the first time I have heard of sound cards being screwed up by network adapters...not common, but not uncommon.
Make sure that not only is the Motu on the high priority IRQ, but that the network card is on a low priority IRQ, like IRQ 5 or something down there.
Don't rely on "well, it's closest to the CPU", look into the BIOS or Windows control panel and SEE what IRQ it's on, make damn sure they are not sharing an IRQ...sometimes I have seen motherboards (often actually, where the top on bottom slots are bridged (meaning using the same IRQ, the next two in are sharing, etc...ya can't assume, you have to find out for sure.
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 04, 2005 06:47 am Pre-sise-lee! On my board (Amptron k830lmr), PCI Slot 1 shares with the AGP slot. I ended up disabling my onboard audio in order to put my PCI interface into the then "unshared" Slot 3 (?) (I think it's 3... I'd have to go look.) There are quite a few interfaces that have problems with the wireless, onboard NICs.
You're most likely a candidate for a dual-boot configuration, which ain't easy for some setups... A 2nd hardware profile *might* work, and *may* be worth the effort. But you'll probably end up with a dual-boot, where one boot-up choice on the menu would be "Networked" (with the NIC enabled and installed), and the other "Audio Work" (with the NIC disabled). Go to www.microsoft.com and click on "Support", and "Search the Knowledge Base" for "Dual-boot" and "Hardware Configuration" and the like.
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 04, 2005 10:07 am Thanks very much - both of you.
Jmail, I'm surprised you haven't gotten tired of coaching me through my newb-ness. dB probably practices voodoo to get past the frustration by now. =3
Oct 04, 2005 10:07 am Nah, just mixed martial arts...so when we actually meet I can kick your ***.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Oct 04, 2005 12:17 pm I had this problem before... I can't exactly remember how I resolvd it... :)
I am thinking it has to do with ACPI but I currently have ACPI installed with no problems... but I'm also using a more modern PC.... which had the evil VIA chipset problem.
I think you can go to start->run services.msc and disable DHCP when you need audio and reenable DHCP when you need network...also check to make sure that your soundcard manager is running in the same sampling rate as the audio program...windows will often try to switch it back to 32khz or 44.1khz to play system sounds or other things...and sometimes the switch back to the correct sampling rate doesn't happen.
Oct 04, 2005 12:41 pm I haven't heard much regarding ACPI problems in quite a while...when ACPI first become common many driver issues resulted from it, but it seems in the last couple years they have been for the most part, resolved.
DHCP, I didn't think of that, but ya, we have seen that a few time around here...if you don't need DHCP for your internet connection, or internal network, I suggest disabling it...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 04, 2005 04:44 pm Again with the newb-ness...but what is DHCP? O_o
Oct 04, 2005 04:54 pm It's a technology used in networking to not have to assign every computer on a network it's own, unique IP address. the DHCP server contains a pool of IP addresses (kinda like a street address for computers) and assigns available IP's from that pool to computers as they log on and off the network.
I assign static IP's across my home network...so I don't need DHCP. Many people, if they don't have a home network, and only connect one PC straight to broadband, need DHCP because their ISP requires it, using the DHCP technology to assign you IP's on their network.
Oct 04, 2005 05:17 pm just my input.....well i was setting up for my pc to be the master on the network cause we got a broad band connection and we just have 2 pc's......well i have an onboard nic as most mobo's come with now....well i hooked up another card to go out to his pc and anytime i tried to record with that card on i was hearing the clips and pops too......but when i disable it (in windows), the clicking stopped........but thats only with the card in the pci slot.....the other one works on fine when i recording
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 04, 2005 09:36 pm Sirrus, I am still a newb, we all are. If we get tired of helping each other... It'll be me next week that needs it...
ACPI (whatever it stands for) was not implemented too well in Win98, slightly better in Win2k, and almost there with WinXP. I had to re-install Win2K (don't ask, it involves money, or, should I say, lack of...) as a "Standard PC" (ie, without ACPI) in order to be able to get my 1820M (PCI interface) IRQ problems under control. If I'd had WinXP, I'd probably be fine with a regular ACPI install. I do not recommend my path as a viable alternative, unless you've got a lack of funds...
zekthedeadcow has discovered the quirks of Windows audio. If you disable system sounds, you won't have anything (unless you load it on purpose or by accident yourself) trying to "convert" the audio for you and screwing it up, like Windows does. Not to forget the fact that on some systems, it "kills" the ASIO driver...
General FYAH has discovered the advantage of disabling the network. Pull the wires, disable the NIC(s) and networking software, and go to town, smartly & "cleanly", please...
Oct 04, 2005 09:38 pm "Advanced Configuration and Power Interface"
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Oct 05, 2005 12:44 am I could have sworn I explained the reason to disable DHCP in my post... but i didn't ...hmmm I must not make a lot of sense to a lot of people anymore... but I'm recalling that DHCP was a big issue with the Q10.
PCI can be implemented in rather creative ways ...the perticular terms escape me at the moment... but each PCI card has sort of a bandwidth/priority assigned to it by the BIOS and some manufactures (particualy VIA) really **** it up and assume that you want the system to focus on the AGP slot (for video) so the AGP slot will perform really fast while the other PCI slots lag behind...add another resource intensive card like a proaudio card and the system can't handle the necessary thru-put.
It could be that DHCP service is hogging the PCI resources trying to communicate with the ethernet card...idunno...
now as far as having a master network computer... it would probably be easier to just have a regualar router so the computer only needs 1 nic... plus if the audio PC is acting as a router it's probably outside the DMZ (as there is no DMZ) and getting hit with everything...an unpatched XP box lasts 20minutes that way according to studies.. I dunno how long a patched XP box will last...maybe 30min :)
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 05, 2005 03:09 pm Wow, do I have a lot to absorb or what! O_o
Ok, so the basic gist is - address any IRQ sharing and attempt to get the firewire card set up on a high priority slot (I assume it's the lowest number possible that I want). At that point, I should be in good.
Second, disable DHCP networking to prevent the conflict between the wireless network adapter (PCI) and the firewire/usb card (also PCI). Now, is there a way to kill that service and still utilize the network? dB, you mentioned assigning static IP addresses to circumvent the need to even utilize DHCP - is that an option when I access broadband 'net service through a network (mine is not the master box)?
Oh, and disable all system sounds.
Did I miss anything or display a complete lack of understanding of the above? ^_^;; I'm trying to cover all of my bases here before I run off half-cocked.
The only other thing I wanted to know - am I best served checking the IRQ assignments in the BIOS or in the hardware profile of my system (whichever makes it easier for me to figure out what is what without a lot of backtracking so as to torment my limited short-term memory). I had basically figured on charting which cards were in what slot going from nearest the processor out and then charting their assignments in whichever I utilized to figure out where things needed to be.
Thanks to all - you're the best!
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 05, 2005 06:58 pm Do the Windows version of IRQ "Start" "Run" type in "msinfo32" and "OK". Opens "Microsoft System Information. Under "System Information", click on the "Hardware Resources" and then "IRQs". That'll show you what Windows is doing with your hardware...
As for disabling Windows audio, it may not be necessary. In my computer/interface scenario, it was... But "killing" the network connection when you record will eliminate all sorts of "polling" that occurs an ungodly amount of times each second...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 06, 2005 10:27 pm Ok, now I think I'm out of my depth here. I ran the procedure you suggested at work before getting home to be sure I understood the "how" of it. At work there were fewer devices to contend with. Now, when I ran it at home, I can see where the conflict comes into play. Problem is, half of the services/devices trumping my firewire doesn't appear to be anything I can change.
What I get on my readout is:
IRQ 0 System timer OK
IRQ 1 Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard OK
IRQ 3 Communications Port (COM2) OK
IRQ 4 Communications Port (COM1) OK
IRQ 5 NVIDIA nForce PCI System Management OK
IRQ 6 Standard floppy disk controller OK
IRQ 8 System CMOS/real time clock OK
IRQ 9 Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System OK
IRQ 12 PS/2 Compatible Mouse OK
IRQ 13 Numeric data processor OK
IRQ 14 Primary IDE Channel OK
IRQ 15 Secondary IDE Channel OK
IRQ 16 D-Link AirPlus DWL-G520 Wireless PCI Adapter(rev.B) OK
IRQ 16 VIA USB Enhanced Host Controller OK
IRQ 17 Promise Technology Inc. Ultra IDE Controller OK
IRQ 18 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OK
IRQ 18 VIA OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller OK
IRQ 18 Silicon Image SiI 3112 SATARaid Controller OK
IRQ 19 U.S. Robotics 56K Fax PCI OK
IRQ 19 VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller OK
IRQ 19 Diamond Stealth S80 OK
IRQ 21 NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking Controller OK
Now how in the world do I get my Firewire from IRQ 18 to something closer to 1? Near as I can tell, there's nothing I can do to eliminate the fact that the keyboard trumps it in system priority. Again, thanks much for your help - this is getting me closer (via baby steps) to actually getting this paperweight to become multi-functional.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Oct 06, 2005 11:00 pm well the IRQ number is irrelevant... the goal is to get it on it's own number... obviously youre 's is sharing with the sata raid controller and usb... You're probably going to have to get a firewire PCI card I think and see what IRQthat gets assigned.
...and you have a VIA chipset so check and see if you need the patch us PCI card people need. Though the symtom is the system will hang at startup...
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 07, 2005 06:44 am Wow - ACPI is what allows all those interrupts to co-exist, but, do they *really*? What brand/model motherboard is that with NVidia and VIA stuff both? Have you got an add-in Promise IDE card? I've never seen IDE take 3 interrupts. Also, the *main* problem with your table, and also the *main* problem with system performance is that shtinkin' Sil 3112 SATA on IRQ 18. There should be angry mobs in front of the Sil corporate headquarters (or any company that uses their SATA controllers) venting their frustrations. There are a few things you can do. First, is that an add-on card already for your firewire? If not, disable the onboard in the BIOS and install a firewire-only card. Also, disable either one or both of the COM ports (if you don't use 'em) in your BIOS. If you don't use the USB, disable it in the BIOS. There is an interrupt used for each port, so it looks like you've got front & back of the box ports. Some folks have had success disabling one port and leaving the other active. My computer would not do that. It is an all-or-nothing setup, so I've not disabled mine. Notice that USB shares 18 also, which isn't *really* bad if you don't have anything plugged in, but it is something the computer has to address and pay attention to.
A really big thing with computers and just about any audio setup where you want to do more than 2 tracks at a time "cleanly" is "dedication". The computer almost has to be dedicated to the audio. You can do dual-boots or multiple hardware configurations in an attempt to get an "Audio Only" setup and a "Everything Else" setup, or get a 2nd computer and do an audio-only-box and an everything-else-box and then network them ("kill" the wire before doing audio!). Some motherboards are more efficient at handling audio and it's apps, some are attrocious. Most of it boils down to how the SATA, USB and Firewire are implemented. The Sil 3112 is an add-on chip and a very inefficient one. If you don't use SATA drives, disable it. Consider going with IDE only, if you can afford the new hardware, and disable the SATA (ouch). The VIA firewire is also very inefficient. If that's an add-on firewire/USB card, ditch it and get an Adaptec or comparable. Also, and this is a big one... That DLink wireless NIC, in addition to the NVidia one is very resource intensive. For the audio setup especially, "kill" the wireless at the least, and better yet, both of them. Windows and NICs like to talk, and they talk alot (kind of like a jmail posting, they go on and on...).
I'd read-up on dual-boot configurations. Go to www.microsoft.com and click on "Support", then put "dual boot" in the "Search" box to search "Knowledge Base", and go from there. Good luck, it'll be a little tough, but I'd think you'll get a little satisfaction from your MOTU, if you can just get rid of a little of the computer's "overhead"...
Edit: sprelling - again!
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 07, 2005 10:18 am Offhand, I can't remember the motherboard model - but it's an ABit AMD motherboard. Part of me is wishing I'd just gone with Pentium/Intel instead when buidling my box. I get a vibe that it might have had less BS to contend with. Hell, if I were to stumble upon the money to do so, I might just rip everything out of the box and install a new motherboard/processor.. ¬_¬
The VIA chipset (as far as I'm aware) is just my Firewire/USB card. Do you know any good places to get a deal on an Adaptec Firewire card? Money is something of an issue at this point, so the less I NEED to spend, the better.
Now, forgive my ignorance, but COM ports are used for printers, right? I've already disabled the motherboard's onboard USB, Firewire, and Sound Output. I'm just mystified that this machine seems so hell bent on throwing all manner of pointless resource hogs at me.
Disabling SATA isn't going to be an issue. I have room to slave two additional IDE drives in my machine (The SATA was just viewed by me as a really insane way to REALLY max it out if I ever wanted to go completely mad and save my toenail clippings, etc).
I guess the only other thing I was hoping to find a way to do was have my Wireless networking (my way to the 'net essentially) play nice with my MOTU so I could be playing MP3s and IMing (something I really figured to be straightforward and not particularly demanding). I'd have no issue with disabling networking while recording, but it'd suck to need to install another sound device to play back music "normally" in the meantime.
Now, the one thing I have yet to figure out - my keyboard is on IRQ 1 and seems to be the trigger for most of the issues I've encountered (moving the mouse has brought it on too, but that could have just as easily have been high download traffic or something that was just well timed). Is it really this other stuff causing the crunch with the keyboard/mouse being the straw that broke the camel's back, or is it more complicated than that?
I'll see about disabling the SATA and picking up a better chipset PCI card once the money is there and I'll see how it all plays out. Other than that, I'll check the COM ports and see what they're all about. I should be able to offer a report tonight.
Oct 07, 2005 10:20 am In the old days parrallel ports were used for printer, COMs were used for external modems and other such COMmunication equipment. It's all USB or firewire now.
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 07, 2005 11:26 am So in short, it's unlikely mine are being used for anything?
Oct 07, 2005 11:29 am correct. Welcome to throwbacks from the 20th century.
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 07, 2005 11:34 am Hehe, baby steps in all things - even technology I guess. =)
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 07, 2005 05:01 pm Ok, I found an Adaptec Firewire card (www.newegg.com/Product/Pr...82E16815152001) as was recommended above. My question is, does anybody know what chipset the thing uses? I can't find any additional info.
The Unicornation forum recommendation was a firewire card with a Texas Instruments chip.
Final question on this: If I get a dedicated firewire card, should I keep the VIA for USB or just go back to using the motherboard's USB ports? I'm just looking for the most efficient use of what I've got so I don't need two new pieces of equipment.
Thanks. =)
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 08, 2005 06:50 am The Adaptec card is fine. The TI chipset for firewire is very good, and I believe that's what the Adaptecs use. Be sure and uninstall the software for the VIA prior to physically removing the existing card. Get rid of it, unless you've got another box to use it in for say, photo or video editing or where bandwidth performance isn't as critical as audio? Adaptec also has a combination firewire/USB, but it runs almost 2x what the single cards do.
When it comes to firewire and USB add-in cards, each "function" of the card requires an interrupt... Do you use USB, and how much? How important is it to have "efficient" USB? If it's for midi, then an onboard solution is fine. If you "need" the bandwidth, tho, an add-in with USB v2 would be crucial. With that in mind, a combination board would be a bit cheaper (not much), simpler to install, and use one less slot...
Part 2 of that, tho: If you don't have SATA drives installed, and disable the SATA in the BIOS (be sure and remove any and all drivers/software for it in Windows before you do!), you may see an incredible improvement in your firewire performance *without* the need for any other computer changes...
If you're not using the COM ports (mouse, modem, link, etc.), then you're "safe" to disable them in BIOS. The "importance" of doing that isn't so important these days with the horsepower available from today's computer. It used to be that you disabled everything that you didn't use, not so much for the IRQ itself (you can't "assign" interrupts anymore, what with ACPI being the "boss"), but more for the "resource" of "time" that the cpu has to spend paying attention to all of those computer parts & peripherals...
And 90% of a PC's trouble can be traced back to the 8088 days of the 1980s. Scary what a computer is still backwards-compatible with. Who wants a monochome green "monster"?...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 11, 2005 10:10 am Well, I haven't disabled the COM ports just yet (I wanted to be damned sure there was nothing I actually used attached...being that it's my luck), but the SATA disabling didn't appear to affect anything, performance wise. Granted, at the same time, I've been heavily utilizing Soulseek (what better place to find rare, unreleased tunes? =D) and the high download traffic might be tweaking the hardware out.
Some additional questions: First, I'm going to try a high performance Firewire card before I call it quits on the MOTU. What I was curious about was whether or not it's likely to induce lag if I get an Adaptec USB 2.0/Firewire combo card. I know my VIA has both and both are assigned the same IRQ by the PC. I don't know if there's a way to remedy this, but I imagine it certainly doesn't help the situation. I just want to be sure it wouldn't introduce more problems than it would solve through PCI economy.
Secondly, in browsing through my BIOS - there are options to "Auto" set certain priority IRQs (I imagine it equates to keyboard, etc from the list above). Is there any setting I could manually adjust in that which would remedy the high priority some of these other processes seem to be getting? I remember in one of the posts above it was said that the number itself is immaterial - any thoughts on this?
Finally, any recommendations for something with similar input/expansion capability if I do end up pawning the MOTU on ebay? The bloody thing appears to work, just not fully as far as my system is concerned. (Any interested takers on HRC should message me. ;-)
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 11, 2005 09:18 pm com port disabling is most likely not "necessary", just an option. "Auto" setting of IRQs in the BIOS matters little to the Windows ACPI... it will still put the interrupts where it wants them, no matter what you or the BIOS may say... I'd say that the VIA card removal and Adaptec card installation would most likely (I won't gaurentee it) work. Leave the SATA disabled in BIOS and remove the drivers in Windows (if there are any), and disable the DLink AirPlus when you go to record. See what happens. In fact, *before* you buy the new card, see what happens when you disable the DLink in the Window Device Manager. Edit: you can always "Enable" it again later, when you're finished recording...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 12, 2005 01:19 am Ok, as it stands - we've disabled Com ports, uninstalled software for the VIA card, and installed a new Adaptec Firewire Card. Result? Shorter spans in which the audio cuts out - but cut outs nonetheless. Granted, disabling the wireless network would probably fix what's left for straight recording, but that doesn't fix the "multitasking" role of the computer much.
Tomorrow I'll see about installing the M-Audio Firewire 410 alongside this (disabling whichever is NOT in use) and seeing if switching between the two gives me the autonomy on this machine I want/need.
Beyond that, I'm out of good ideas. If sharing the system between the two depending on my apps in use doesn't work - any suggestions for a replacement for both that won't be so picky (or directions to a thread containing the same)?
jmailjimmie neutronMember
Since: Feb 14, 2005
Oct 12, 2005 05:23 pm I'll tell ya this: when you're going to do any serious recording, and the MOTU is made for that, you've *got* to dedicate the computer for its use. No ifs ands or buts about it. If you've only got the one computer box, you're stuck with either dual-boot (the easier solution) or multiple hardware profiles (difficult to setup). The dual-boot setup would involve using partitioning software (such as Partition Magic, which I think Norton bought - yikes!) to allocate a separate primary partition for a 2nd WinXP install. Leave enough room for your audio apps and "growth" (Windows leaves "allot" of trash around...). When I did a dual-boot with Win2K before, I partitioned my 60g Master drive into 2 30g partitions (actual size was like 24.5g each), and left my 80g alone as the Slave drive with one partition. I left my original install alone (for the network and all that other jazz), and installed a 2nd Win2K on the "new" partition and did not install diddly in it. I then disabled all the hardware (in the Windows Device Manager) that I wasn't going to use for audio (the NIC, USB ports, onboard audio, etc.). Then I installed my EMU and all it's associated software. I ended up wiping it out and just doing the whole machine to audio work 'cause I just didn't like having to re-boot to do things other than the audio (besides, 30g is a lot of hard drive realestate to give up for me)...
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 13, 2005 10:04 am At this point the main issue is trying to figure out the most "frictionless" way to either accomodate the MOTU or another device that will allow for recording on that many channels (with corresponding preamps) without cramping the more "consumer level" applications I run.
If I alter my PC to suit the MOTU, the idea for the hard-drive bay seems the most usable. I could simply swap out drives as needed to boot to whichever purpose I had in mind. The only issue there is how to set up sound. I have no (nor particularly want) internal sound, save what I disabled on the motherboard. I've gotten rather used to having my monitors for music playback (and for a while, even games - which rocks, let me say) and would like to have them be the primary playback device regardless of what I'm doing. This means installing both the MOTU and my old M-Audio box and having one of them disabled in either install and swapping cables or having a switch box of some sort to change the source the monitors are pulling from.
I can see what you're saying about dedicated systems (much as part of me wishes I could have my cake and pig out too), and now it's just a case of planning out the most cost effective route to success.
SirrusPrince of Cat EarsMember
Since: Jun 17, 2004
Oct 18, 2005 01:38 pm Ok, here's the verdict. As of the moment, I have need of a computer for more than just recording/mixing. That being the case (much as I'd just be beside myself with numerous high powered PCs in my possession), I think I'm going to see about recouping what I can on the MOTU by either posting it here or on E(vil)Bay. For the forseeable future, I'm going to move back to my M-Audio Firewire 410 and use that until I get a better grasp of my system and perhaps a better hardware option to go with in order to upgrade while still avoiding the sacrifice of more "frivolous" functions of my machine.
I do have one final question for y'all though - I was reading up on M-Audio's site and found a firewire mixing board with 8 Combo inputs w/ preamps. I assume this is likely to have the same issues with desiring exclusive use of the PCs resources. Anybody have any experience with these? I'm at this point more inclined to deal with the same problems from a company that actually offers reliable support to their customers (I don't think I'll ever part with cash to MOTU again...absolutely abysmal).
Anyway, any thoughts on that or anything else?
