Mastering Loudness

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Lost for words with all to say.
Contributor Since: Sep 12, 2003

Greeting Everyone!

Well I have adventured into the world of mastering. Course, this is probably the 598th time somebody has brought this up here. I compare my songs to other songs of the same type (rock) and mine just doesn't seem to sound exciting as these do. I'm using Wavelab with Q10, Linear Phase, and L2 (limiter) going by the tutorial on har-bal's website and getting my volume levels like they say. I don't think it's actual "volume" I need, almost like it needs something to make it sound crispy. I know all it's going to take is one person (*cough*dB*cough) that will mention one thing and it will throw me on that right path I need to be on.

Thanks!

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Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 16, 2005 07:33 pm

i'm havin' this issue myself....basically i always use soft limiting, and watch my meters in wavelab...i loaded a sevendust song into wave lab and that album was SLAMMING my meters at -8dbRMS!!!! i have to struggle to hit -12dbRMS....

Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003


Jun 16, 2005 10:22 pm

Well you might be looking for an Exciter Ozone has one, I'm sure Waves bundles would have it as well, to give it that little extra, a stereo imager also helps in that department.

Dan

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Jun 16, 2005 10:31 pm

alrighty

www.kvraudio.com/get/1355.html

www.kvraudio.com/get/789.html

I've found these sought of make the mix more "dense" shall we say. though, i dont use them any more lol.

I put a bit of really soft compression with fast attack to take of the transients highs, a tad harder compression then add a bit of harmonic exciter, stereo imaging, and then limit the song at about .3 dbfs.

However, i am quite a way off of producing the "pro" sound, so dont take my setup as a guide!

Cheers

C_S


Lost for words with all to say.
Contributor
Since: Sep 12, 2003


Jun 16, 2005 10:39 pm

Thanks for the info Colonel!

Hey WYD! You got my avatar!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 16, 2005 10:41 pm

I am working on straightening out some avatar issues...it's the damn people that joined HRC Pro, had custom avatars, then didn't re-up on HRC Pro that goofed up some stuffs.

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Jun 16, 2005 10:44 pm

I think that the microphones and preamps that you use make a big difference in the area that you mention Vdale...the overall "crispness" is kind of an additive effect that a nice pristine preamp has on the overall mix. Budget preamps that most of us home recordists use have just enough muddiness that when you track an entire song with them, they tend to add up to an overall muddy kind of sound in comparison to the high end gear that's pretty much out of reach to most of us.

Plus technique is a big part of it too. For me personally, I know that I don't have the experience to make high end gear sound any better than my current hobbyist gear.

:edit:
LOL dB, I see what you mean...I've been wondering wtf was going on. I just thought that stealing other people's avatars was the in thing to do :)

Lost for words with all to say.
Contributor
Since: Sep 12, 2003


Jun 17, 2005 08:36 am

I believe that can have an effect. We don't have $1,000 to blow on one preamp! But I think we can make it crisper if we want with what we got!

I've been thinking. I have read here about premastering/mastering and it's starting to make sense to me. With my project I was working on last night, the premastering is getting it to sound crisp with either Ozone or Waves Plugins, whatever works. Then, Mastering is getting the overall song to be balanced and hot with Har-Bal, Phase, Limiters, etc. I was just doing Mastering last night, need more work at the premastering phase. It's starting to make sense now....

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 17, 2005 10:32 am

premastering is just the result of the mixdown...that is the premaster.

Lost for words with all to say.
Contributor
Since: Sep 12, 2003


Jun 17, 2005 10:51 am

Ahhh, roger! I'll get that in my head one of these days.

So dB, what do you do to make your mixes more "crispy-er"? If you don't mind me asking.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 17, 2005 10:54 am

ummmmmmmm, leave it in the oven longer?

Sorry, not sure what you mean, to me crisp is just a byproduct of proper mixing, giving each instrument it's own sonic space so as not to make mud.

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jun 17, 2005 11:03 am

IMO, every single bit of the process from tuning the instruments to miking, tracking, mixing (very important) and mastering are going to affect your overall loudness in the end.

I think the reason why sometimes we can't hit -10 dBRMS (or -8 as WYD wrote, which is insane!) is because we have problems that arise early on in our projects, and during mixing. Noise floor is a huge part of the problem, inaudible noise is a huge problem, and overlap of frequencies in the mix is a HUGE problem.

The noise issues could come from miking techniques, overprocessing the wav, bad mic, bad room acoustics etc.

The frequency overlap is a hard one...this takes a lot of time and patience in the mixing stage to get all instruments living and breathing in their OWN space. I know from experience how hard this can be but when you nail it, you know it cause your mix will pound at ALL volume levels. Compression plays a big role here as well.

I did some work for my buddy who is a singer/songwriter and I managed to get his mix to - 10 dBRMS (I may have been able to push it further but the dynamics would have suffered). This took some long nights of mixing and re-mixing and smashing stuff before the mix was to a point where I could honestly say that the mix was done. But, after all that pain and suffering I opened it up in Soundforge (where I attempt my mastering) and ran it through slight compression, put it through Waves L1 and to my surprise I was pumping -10 dBRMS, and it sounded fantastic!

I guess my point here is that if you want to hit these insane volume levels and still have a mix that sounds good, you cannot rush ANY part of the process, it will all have an effect in the end. I think that a bad habit these days is to try to fix the tracking during mixing, and fix the mixing during mastering...it just doesn't work.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 17, 2005 11:06 am

I don't be overly concerned with keeping up with the volume of discs you buy in the store. Too many of those discs are so incredible over compressed and maximized it drives me nuckin futs...some horrible examples of production to be had in those...

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jun 17, 2005 11:28 am

You have to admit though dB, some of these records sound INCREDIBLE. I agree that some of the engineers go overboard to get there and the music suffers, but there are engineers who know how to get there properly and the results are unbelievable. Personally, I will leave the master where it sounds best, but I know that if my tracking is good then all it takes is the right mix to get to these levels. I like to challenge myself constantly, so I experiment with this a lot but I do agree that it is not ultimately important. I know when I listen to a record, it's not the RMS power that gets me hooked, it's the tunes. But, if I get a client who is really hung up on the issue of loudness, I like having the confidence that I can get them there.


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 17, 2005 11:30 am

Well, sure, some do sound incredible. But don't confuse volume with sound quality, thats all I am saying. So many people come here and say "my recording isn't as loud as professional CD's", my first thought is "so, do they sound good?"

crazy canuck
Member
Since: Nov 25, 2004


Jun 17, 2005 11:38 am

I totally agree that sound quality should come first...

Another question to ask them:

"Did you spend $500,000 recording your tunes?"

it's sad though that some of these bands spend this kind of dough and end up with crap. Metallica's latest album seems to come to mind :), but I hope they didn't spend more than a hundred bucks on that one.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 17, 2005 11:43 am

Yeah, that last Metallica album has had it's share of beatings on this forum, thats for sure, what a pile of crap that thing is...my very first attempt at recording many years ago on my old four track sounded better than some spots on that thing...I think Hetfields big head has finally gotten too far cuz he thinks it's the bomb.

Hello!
Member
Since: Jan 12, 2004


Jun 17, 2005 04:30 pm

I place no importance on Hetfield...he looks like the friendly lion from the Wizard of Oz and is a bit of a butthole to boot!

And that album was gash for sure, production wise.

As for volume, man, its no aboot the volume - tis aboot the sound quality as many have said. Nevermind competiting on volume stages - get the sound right and ye'll no go far wrong.

After all, thats what the big round knob on the hifi is for!!! hehe.

Cheers

Coco.

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