level faders
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Posted on May 30, 2005 08:15 pm
mccarty
eeeeeeemo.
Member Since: Oct 30, 2003
heello everyone
if i do all my mixing in software, would the level faders on a hardware mixing desk have any purpose, or should i leave them all at 0dB?
i'm just looking into the possibility that i might buy a mixing desk instead of numerous preamps, to work in conjunction with my delta 66 and cubase se...
if you use a computer based sequencer... when might you actually use the level faders on a hardware mixer? i get easily confused with where it is necessary to make adjustments, as there's so many places along a signal path that you can do so!
thanks as always for any help
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May 30, 2005 08:24 pm Hey Man
If ye are using the level faders (as mine does for the last 8 channels) for gain, youd need to set em to ensure no clips.
Mostly tho, these are for mixing on the desk so if ye plan on doing yer mixing in Cubase, you wont really need to use them.
Keep em all set to a nice level so you can hear the volume without clips then transfer to the PC. Thats what I do with my Fostex anyways.
IF, ye planned to mix using the desk, the faders obviously control the mix but as I Say, its just to ensure there is enough signal coming from the desk to the PC (if ye are transferring track by track). Also, the main outs faders would need to be set properly too ensure enough/not too much volume.
I hope I explained that right..its late, am off to bed as its 1.24 here!
Good luck man.
Coco.
May 30, 2005 08:28 pm Well, that would depend on where in you mixer's signal chain that you send the signal out to your computer's soundcard.
If you are using direct outs or the inserts from the preamps, then mostly likely these are prefader and the settings on your faders won't have any affect on what get's sent to the soundcard.
However, if you're using the mixer's main outs or submixes then the faders WILL affect the signal and they should be set accordingly. Keep in mind when doing it this way that if your mixing more then 1 signal together that the mix you get at this point is pretty much what you're stuck with.
May 30, 2005 08:29 pm Wait! Coco! I want to show you something quick, in the pro forum.
May 30, 2005 08:31 pm I do exactly that with my allen&heath's mixwiz 16:2 DX.
A Fader ia a varible resistor, and create excess levels of noise when they are pulled up because it is an active component (or something along the lines. I forget these things). Since your using it to record input signals, and you want the best S/N ratio, i would take the fader to about -10db and use the trim knob to adjust the volume instead.
You would only use the hardware mixer to provide ampilification for the mic signal to line signal (ie. preamp).
I have my Aardvark gain knobs set quite low, permanently, so i can adjust the gain more easily with my mixer, instead of through the Aardvark.
C_S
May 30, 2005 08:32 pm Btw, Mike, most direct outs are post fader arent they?
May 30, 2005 08:34 pm Well, now I'm not so sure what they are. I always though that was the point of having direct outs was that they were unaffected by fader movements.
May 30, 2005 08:38 pm I know if you use inserts as direct outs, that would def. be pre fader, but for recording purposes, wouldnt it make more sense if it was affected by fader movements?
My mixwiz Direct outs's are definately postfader. 100%
May 30, 2005 08:47 pm The ideal situation for me would be switchable pre/post. To be honest, everything I've ever used were just inserts but I would still prefer the signal NOT being affected and leaving that for the mixdown process. Less chances for unreconcilable error, I would think.
May 30, 2005 09:00 pm www.silentway.com/tips/equip/directout.php
Yea fair enough Mike, i guess i would like a pre/post switch on my direct outs, although fader adjustments do seem more natural for me. I suppose I would use inserts, but my direct outs are balanced, and my snake travels through a fair amount of powercables before it reches the DAW.
May 31, 2005 12:00 am heheh ok inserts are definately PRE fader, unless there's a button for it....this is a perfect example of gain staging....UNLESS you like the mixers 'sound' (and i'm talking Neve here) you want to keep the signal as prestine as possable....
Quote:
A Fader ia a varible resistor, and create excess levels of noise when they are pulled up because it is an active component
YESSSSS senoiour sanders this is true... """"proper digital recording""""" techniques say you want to preserve your signal the best you can...if you are using your channel faders as an 'amplifier' for boosting signals, or as a 'resistor' for taming louder signals, then you ARE using that circutry to affect your sound.....
keeping channel faders at unity (0db) allows your signal to pass through it without any coloration (distortion). because it's not dooin' anything *passive*
NOW....in "multi platnum studio" situations, a good signal chain has a good analogue (that's right i said analoGUE) board that is beeing pushed to it's limits, because it WILL sing, like any other compnate in the signal chain...
to summarize, keep your whole board at unity gain when tracking unless you're using and SSL or something. channel faders at 0db and master faders at zero aswell...turn ALL other preamps all the way down (they are noizy bastards) and all channel faders that you are not using down too.
i'm drunk and preaching the gosple !
hallauya! sorry for the spellin'.
May 31, 2005 01:14 am yay! i got quoted for something good!
mccartyeeeeeeemo.Member
Since: Oct 30, 2003
May 31, 2005 04:19 am are insert points pre fader if you use the "first click" method?
....also, does pre fader just mean it bypasses the level fader, or does it bypass all the eq knobs and whatnot too, meaning you're just getting direct sound from the preamp and trim knob (or is that what a direct out is...)
thanks for the replies guys! i'm now thinking of going with a soundcraft e series or spirit m series desk *nods*
May 31, 2005 05:10 am Depends upon whats pre-fader I guess lol. I think Aux-pre fader would go before the EQ, and after the preamp, but Pre-fader Direct out i guess would go after the EQ. Thats just a guees btw. Insert points would go before the EQ (so you'd not be compressing EQ) based on common sense, but i dont think pre-fader anything could go before the preamp.
I think pre-fader can mean a lot of things on differnt desks (eg. after/before EQ) but I guess it mostly means before the fader.
Have a looksy at the block diagrams.
First click? havent learnt that one....
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 31, 2005 09:57 am first click into a channel insert taps signal from the mixer before the EQ and before the fader. This gives less signal degradation as it doesn't have to travel through any more signal chain components than it has to.
If you put a TRS all the way into channel insert, then signal gets sent out one tap of the plug, and the mixer expects it to come back in through the other tap of the plug (hence the TRS). If you only first click, then signal goes into the TRS jack, but also stays in the mixer, going along it's merry way.
I'd have to check block diagrams to ensure that channel insert is before EQ, but it is before fader.
mccartyeeeeeeemo.Member
Since: Oct 30, 2003
May 31, 2005 10:55 am do you have to use TRS jacks when using this method? i'm now looking at the soundcraft e series and would be using this method of tapping the signal to record to cubase *nods*
thanks again for all the help - i've learnt a lot about desks in the past week and feel a bit more informed and ready to go buy one!
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 31, 2005 11:30 am nope, mono will work. You're only using a 1 way signal for this application. The actual insert cables have 1 trs on one end, going to 2 mono TS plugs on the other end. the trs jack would carry 2 way signal at that junction.
Mono plug on both ends will do the trick. You can use trs if that's what you have, but it's not necessary and won't make a difference either way.
edit: you're welcome. just trying to help people save a few bucks, if they can use channel inserts instead of buying a board with all direct outs.
