Mar 23, 2005 02:04 pm prolly the same way every other lawsuit ends up that is filed against Behringer...eh, whatever.
Roland sues Behringer
Posted on Mar 23, 2005 02:02 pm
Tadpui
I am not a crook's head
Member Since: Mar 14, 2003
www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2054
Oh man does Behringer ever have it coming. Ever since that thread here about Beri's new pedals that are blatant rip-offs of Boss pedals, I knew something had to give. I'm anxious to see how this pans out.
Of course, Behri's web site no longer has pictures of pedals that resemble Boss'. Instead, they have those weird digital drawings of alternate pedal designs. The photo in that article clearly shows how much of a rip-off the original designs were.
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Mar 23, 2005 02:04 pm prolly the same way every other lawsuit ends up that is filed against Behringer...eh, whatever.
Mar 23, 2005 02:23 pm well heres a novel idea... drop the prices of the equipment so you dont have to be a millionair to make music!!!!
Long live behringer!
Mar 23, 2005 02:26 pm I am a big fan of peeps like Behringer cutting prices and selling well priced gear, but they have blatantly ripped off companies before, and I think that is lame as hell.
That said, I have my Behringer mixer and like it, I came out ahead by buying it, so, until it affects me directly, I don't really care who sues who...if Behringer is so stupid as to not even attempt to hide their blatant theft, they have it comin'
Mar 23, 2005 02:33 pm seems to me like they'll steal someone else's idea, then make a cheap copy of it, and then ride on the visual similarities to carry it's sales, since it can't carry sales on it's own.
It's dirty pool, and I won't bolster they're sales.
Mar 23, 2005 02:46 pm I'm kinda with you pjk. More power to them for being able to get away with some of the rip-offs that they've produced, but the thought of supporting such business practices with my purchases kinda makes me feel dirty.
Every industry has a copy-cat element to it, but they take it pretty far and their pedals definitely crossed the line.
Just out of curiosity, has anybody used any of these suspiciously familiar-looking pedals yet? Can they actually make something worth plugging a cable into for $25?
Mar 23, 2005 02:48 pm i'd use berries for stuff that dosn't really affect the overall recording...i'm thinkin' things like headphone amps, tuners, and stuff like that.
Mar 23, 2005 02:54 pm Not me TadPui, I won't use a pedal...what a pain in the butt, give me a multieffects rack unit any day :)
Mar 23, 2005 02:56 pm I think they really blew it claiming Roland "Approved and Endorsed" the line. Man that's a double dog dare. LOL
Dan
Mar 23, 2005 03:19 pm you gotta wonder what the heck some people are thinking.
Mar 23, 2005 03:21 pm yeah, deserve a big *** kickin for that.
Mar 23, 2005 06:09 pm Presley, I don't use pedals any more either, but I'd imagine the berri pedals sound fine. There really isn't much to most of them, for the most part your paying for the Boss name, and Roland in particular isn't noted for great value, only great products. :)
Dan
Mar 23, 2005 07:28 pm Actually a lot of what you pay for is research and development. Roland probably spent a fair amount of time experimenting with different components and found that this resistor and that capacitor and this diode gives the right results.
Then along comes Behringer and says "oh, they used this resistor and that capacitor and this diode" so here ya go. All it cost them was a screwdriver and about 15 minutes ;-)
Mar 23, 2005 07:31 pm wow what a lame move to ape the appearance of the rolands. im all for cheap pedals but xhrist, behringer, get your own casing!
Mar 23, 2005 08:37 pm Quote:
they have blatantly ripped off companies before, and I think that is lame as hell.
Exactly, Mackie, dbx, and now Roland. This is why I don't buy Behringer. I'd like to reward the companies who actually do their own R&D. There won't be any more innovation if we just give our dollars to the company that rips off the innovators. Just my 2 cents.
Mar 23, 2005 08:47 pm Yeah, on one hand I appreciate that sentiment, and I follow that sentiment often myself, but when it comes down to music gear, I buy based on the cost/quality/budget ratio...
Bottom line is what works best for #1...me.
Mar 23, 2005 08:51 pm Gotta give em this though: atleast they ripped off something decent and not something like DOD's cheesy, poorly constructed pedals.
Mar 23, 2005 10:58 pm I guess I feel if they can make comparable gear for a better price I am all for that. It is an open market, and there are only so many ways you can make something look differant from the compatition.
But I do agree that making an exact copy of the Boss pedals was a bit dumb. I honestly dont think Uli is that dumb as to do something like that without first either having some kind of permision, or finding a hole in the fabric of a patent or something that would allow him to legally copy the dress of the Boss pedals.
Ya, its lame indeed. But so is the fact that every comapny in the world copied someone elses product in one way or another.
Do ya think Slingerland got pissed at Ludwig when they came out with the exact same sparkle blue drum set two months after Slngerland released theirs.
And as dB stated, I am buying it for me. And for the quality I believe is in the gear for the best price I can get.
Mar 24, 2005 12:02 am I wouldn't get too upset about the whole thing. The dust is settling out there and Behringer is only getting a deserved share of the market. Mackie, SoundCrafter, A&H, Yamaha, Alesis, and others are now competitive in price vs quality and everybody is getting a piece of the market. Behringer is mostly getting 'gadget' sales at present. Mostly prosesses and effects that others are dropping in physical boxes as software is doing it better. Korg, Yamaha, Boss, Fostex, etc. are eating up a good share of the 'mini studio' market with the 'all in one' boxes. Churches, groups, production companies are still buying the more rugged proven equipement.
Behringer among others did a service in effect by bringing all gear closer in price to the average Joe with a project studio, but they are in no way eating up the market.
Mar 24, 2005 12:15 am not that I really care but company's make knock offs all the time why who knows but I think Roland must be greedy or/and pathetic to sue for something so stupid such as this people make knock offs of EVERYTHING and knowone goes out of there way to sue them!I like roland products and I respect berrie products but this is just plain ol stupid in my eyes.
Mar 24, 2005 01:41 am Knock-offs yes, but they don't sit there and then try to claim the company's products they are knocking off are Approved & Endorsed by said company. I find it odd they would make a claim like that, but that is apparently what they did.
It also has little to do with greed IMO, companys must actively enforce their rights or they lose them. Roland has spent along time earning & building their reputation, and has every right to make sure a company such as Berringer, trying to pass off products as endorsed by them don't tarnish or dilute that reputation.
Dan
Mar 24, 2005 01:42 am They are impinging on other peoples brand and intellectual property. Is this hard to understand? They are profiting by implying "hey, It's a Roland." If someone approached me with stolen gear and tried to sell it to me for half price, I wouldn't buy it because because they're theives, and I don't buy from thieves.
Behringer, like the stupid kid in class keeps trying to pass off somebody elses A+ paper off as their own. For that I give them an F and won't reinforce that unethical cheating behavior.
Mar 24, 2005 01:51 am I agree that ideas get ripped off all the time but I think they should have at the very least tried to come up with an orginal housing for them. The problem I have with the audio world is that most of the gear is not worth anywhere near what it cost. Both in recording and in the audiophile world youre paying more for prestige than the value of the gear. Crack open one of those mic preamps that cost a few thousand and make a list of the components inside. In most cases they have maybe $300-$400 worth of parts and thats if one of us were to buy the parts without the bulk discount that a major company would get. I know there is R&D, marketing and retail markup but its still not even close factoring all of that in. Sorry for the rant. Take care guys!
Mar 24, 2005 02:19 am Put it in this perspective. If Kia built a car that looked exactly like a Mustang, and sold it for 10,000 less, would Ford have a genuine grievance? Arguably the Mustang is the most recognizable Ford vehicle. Would KIA make it equally as good and with the same quality parts? Not if it's 10,000 less. Would Ford suffer from all the Mustang "Clones" on the market? Absolutely.
If Bheringer is cloning the look of another companies well known product, the other company WILL be hurt, and should be seriously concerned with the dilution of their "Branding".
If Bheringer has a product that is "As Good" as a competitors at a better price, the market will make it a success. Using anothers appearance is just misleading and is ethicly wrong.
Mar 24, 2005 02:21 am yup I agree this stuff is wayyy overpriced but thats another thread completly...
Mar 24, 2005 02:41 am Yeah sorry about that, I can be random that way.
For me the issue here is more about the image than the internal workings. There is always going to be both innovation and imitation as long as there is a buying market. I have no problem with them copying a product and making it a little cheaper at a loss of some quality for the rest of the world to be able to play but I dont like them trying to look exactly like the original.
Mar 24, 2005 05:54 am Quote:
If Kia built a car that looked exactly like a Mustang, and sold it for 10,000 less, would Ford have a genuine grievance?
if kia built a car that looked exactly like a mustang id fall over and die i think...
Mar 24, 2005 07:21 am I have loads of Behringer gear and I frankly dont care who researched and developed it, how it came to be or even what parts are in it - IF IT SOUNDS GOOD _ ITS GOOD FOR ME!! If I can afford it, all the better :-D!!
Now, thats not to say I agree with theft of copyright, blatant infringement but lets not forget DieMusiks point here (and I AGREE totally with this) - a lot of audio gear is cheaply made and WELL INFLATED in price terms. Flame makes pedals, Loki makes stuff too - they have shown it can be done. Im not talking production line here but Im sure both guys agree for the cost v selling price, its a rip off. IF I choose to be ripped off thats up to me but lets not feel too sorry for the multi-billionaire companies who for years, cared NOT for ethics with wages bordering on slavery in specific countries etc...lets not forget that and this is key here, if BEHRINGER or anyone else has broken the law, you can BET YOUR LAST POUND that the offended companys hundredsd of blood sucking lawyers will be on to it.
THe rich didnt get rich by being ripped off! So, whilst I dont agree with blatant plaguerisim (tho I am not losing sleep over it - thats why they have lawyers!) I dont overly care aboot who makes what and how it got there.
Noize also makes a valid point - we have been evolving and growing as a race and as technically gifted engineers etc for centuries...we could say Henry Ford ripped of the first guy to build the wheel as he made a vehicular transportational device with 4 cylindrical things that make it move but we dont...
I say, let the lawyers worry aboot it - if Uncle Uli is ripping someone off and being bad, he'll eb sorted oot. Til then, I say, long live the Behringer....
Coco.
Mar 25, 2005 12:44 am Ya, I gotta say for me it's all about what I get for the buck. I do consider 'soft' issues as well in the 'bang for the buck' formulation.
A good example are mixers. Right now one of the best bangs for the buck is the A&H Wizard 3. Sixteen nice pre-amps, direct outs on all channels (recording mixer for sure) minimal extended routing, but an insert on each channel. All in a 'rack (19")' format for $799.00 special. Even Behringer can't meet that when you consider the rugged build, sound quality, and warrenty, in a truely 'for recording' format. If you are going to do 'on site' recording at all this unit is 'in the pocket' for value.
Mar 25, 2005 01:02 am You know, when you get right down to it, ripping off ideas in any business is more common than it seems. Heres an example of two companys that have built empires out of that practice. Pepsi and Coke. Then you have all of the sub-brands, Sprite-7up, Dr.Pepper-Mr.Pib you get the idea. Now lets talk household electronics with companys like Sony, Pioneer, JVC ect. I mean there is just no place to start when you talk about that market! I still think Berhinger is wrong for using an exact copy of the pedal housing but I wont lose any sleep over their business model. Take care Guys!
Mar 25, 2005 06:15 am well, really, I don't believe the crux of the problem is that Berry built pedals that looked like Boss, the crux of it is the Berry also said something like "approved and endorsed by Roland" therein lies a HUGE problem, and the absolute peak of human idiocy...
Mar 25, 2005 09:44 am I dunno, after re-reading the above article, I believe it may be abit premature to draw any conclusions quite yet. Looks like all we know is that Roland claimed that was what Berhinger said. It could be true, or it could be a desparate attempt to swing the courts ruling in Roland's faver. Who knows?
Me personally, I like Boss/Roland; and I like Behringer. I hope both companies continue onward making affordable quality products.
Mar 25, 2005 10:09 am I like Roland gear, I just wish the would use a better translating company for their English manuals...
Mar 25, 2005 10:14 am that could be said about most companies.
Mar 25, 2005 10:24 am I can't remember the manuals too much, I always seem to lose them before I really have a chance to read it.
One thing I like about their products is their ruggedness. They're just about indestructable! I've had my Boss GT-3 (modeling/multi-effects) now for about 7 years and it's been with me since my first gig and every one after that and it's still kickin like new, although cosmetically it's a scratch-mess.
Mar 25, 2005 10:31 am Quote:
They are impinging on other peoples brand and intellectual property. Is this hard to understand? They are profiting by implying "hey, It's a Roland." If someone approached me with stolen gear and tried to sell it to me for half price, I wouldn't buy it because because their theives, and I don't buy from thieves.
come on now that pushing it! im all for knock offs i think intellectual property laws are lame as hell. look at the perscription drug industry, company "a" spends billions in research, develops drug, only gets like 7 years on the patent(i could be wrong on this but its not a long time) they are forced to charge out the ying yang for the new drug because they have to recoup their money because then know company "b" gets to make a generic version soon. so if anything these companies are the ones that deserve the long patents, not some electronics company. seems assbackwards to me.
i think beri should have come up with their own casing and name-ing convention, thats where they messed up, besides there is no way the quality of the components would be the same, would they?? its a bummer because i was really interested in these pedals.
so karyn if you really feel this way, i hope you dont buy generic drugs.
Mar 25, 2005 10:36 am Well, that is pretty much big business, take somebody's idea, and expand on it, or dumb it down...make it cheaper, make it better, whatever.
I am pretty much like the others, the casing was just a stupid, they are just asking for a lawsuit. Personally, in this case I think they deserve it, but it doesn't really change my mind on the company. Their nitch is making decent product affordable, they take stupidly overpriced stuff remake it so anyone can afford it...I dig that.
Mar 25, 2005 10:39 am i just went to the beri site and the naming convention and the pedal casings are all changed!!! lol!
Mar 28, 2005 12:03 am "so karyn if you really feel this way, i hope you dont buy generic drugs."
There's a legal process for other drug companies to adapt brand name drugs. You'll have to ask Mackie, dbx, and Roland if they think my analogy is pushing it. Patents are only as strong as the legal muscle you have to back them up. They have a notorious reputation for this kind of activity, and everyone in the industry knows it. There is no other company like them. The thing is, Mackie and Roland have the muscle to protect themselves from this vulture picking their bones. I feel for the little guy that comes up with a innovative audio idea and the B company just takes it and markets it. The little guy is facing legal bills that will bankrupt their company just to protect what belongs to them.
I just can't wait for Behringer to release their new Behringer Monster cables. I hear they're endorsed by Monster and every bit as good. :)
I love my new Behringer Foreman grill by the way.
Mar 28, 2005 02:14 am I liked the Behringer gril analogy, i got a good laugh at that along with the moster cable (that's a toataly different thread all together). I think doing the copy cat thing is a bit "cheap" but it comes down to the fact each of us has the option to buy or not to buy. I have a # of Berry stuff about 80% of it works well and I wouldn't trade it. there are a few things (equipment) that I'll stay with the name brands that have had them for a # of years becuase I've come to trust that product. Making carbon copies of a well know pedal was "cheeky" to say the least ,boo on them . Calling Mackie and Roland the little fish is a bit of a streach. The thing I've seen happen to "the little guy" is the big companies (Digitech, roland ect) buy them out and take a good product and discontinue it or make it crap IMO. That situation happend to Johnson Amplifications, when the J-station came out it had the uper hand on all amp modeler (even the POD 2.0) it had qualities on it that no other amp sim in the price range had and they were bought out.
Mar 28, 2005 07:15 am I just hate getting all worked up about this because so much of it ends up being bogus, much like the Monster Cable thing, which rumor and the internet helped spin in to something much larger than it really is.
Copying pedals, ya, cheeky, but whatever, I got way more important things to concern myself with than whether or not poor-wittle-woland might be hurt by it...
Mar 28, 2005 12:50 pm i just wish Roland spent less time worrying about someone making a cheap copy of their boss pedals,which are priced at almost 1/3 the cost( if boss had a line of cheap pedals i could see them really being upset)and more time developing a digital multitrack with a headphone jack worth a damn! and also to work at making their guitar synth better!!!
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