Oct 27, 2004 04:14 am Interesting, but I hear about this first time. Where did you read this?
Jazz Drum Kit Mic'ing
Posted on Oct 26, 2004 11:58 pm
Walt
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member Since: May 10, 2002
Just read the most interesting article that makes sense to me, at least exihibits potential. I am wondering if anyone has had any experience with this technique. The article is a little vague as it refers to mics that I am not familiar with as well as special mic head adapters.
This technique uses only two mics. One mic is placed at the vortex of the snare, tom, splash, and high hat. The second is placed at the vortex of the left (facing kit) toms and cymbals. Both mics are placed in front of the kit (the audiance side of the kit) and obviously not overheads.
Obviously this technique is for a very accomplisned, controlled percussionist, but it would offer great phase control and adaquate image seperation.
Hope someone has tried it!
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Oct 27, 2004 04:14 am Interesting, but I hear about this first time. Where did you read this?
Oct 27, 2004 07:23 am damien rice records his drums with two mics...
Oct 27, 2004 07:35 am Edvo,
You cought me with my pants down on that one. Some DPA microphone liturature, probably a couple of years old. I have a couple of friends that will download stuff and bring it over from time to time and I just got around to reading it. Daaaa!
Flame,
Damien Rice? Wouldn't it be great if some of these guys would share their recording techniques, like maybe piggers on a web site of sessions or something? I'm terrible, all about me. Show me how you do it...for free!...Shameless.
Oct 27, 2004 07:41 am damien rice : www.damienrice.com/
hes big over here, obviously not kicked off over there yet...
theres some tunes here www.damienrice.com/music.html - try out 'volcano' if you can find it - your kinda thing i think walt...
Oct 27, 2004 07:42 am actually, maybe its not, theres the single version up there, but the album version's better...
Oct 27, 2004 08:20 am I've heard of a similar way of micing the kit, using two mics as you suggest, but only for recording not live. I was thinking about trying it myself, but I'm waiting for us to write an apropriate song for that sound. I guess it gives a sound that David Sylvian gets on his later albums, the drums sit really nicely in the mix and very natural sounding for the songs. At least, that's the idea I have of the way that it would sound.
Oct 27, 2004 09:40 am For live, works great. We do that but I believe it does have to have some work to get a good sound. I actually use 3 mics because the overheads don't pick up the kick drum like I want. I'm about to add a 4th mic because I want more control over the snare. It gets a really good "room" sound I think. I totally suggest it live to save channels on your board.
Oct 27, 2004 09:49 am Cool Flame, Ya that's gettin close!
Dan,
Now your talkin! Ya, this is jazz and swing. A fair amount of brush work, time marking with high hat, rim shot, etc. Subtle fills, tasty stuff. And most of the guys I work with have very good control. No real need for super isolation techniques. And yes, studio application only. I only mentioned "audiance side" for the drummer. You know, how many drummers does it take to screw in a light bulb...One; he stands still as the world revolves around him.
Oct 27, 2004 09:52 am how many roadies does it take to change a lightbulb?
12 12
Oct 27, 2004 04:02 pm Hey Walt, I am probably going up the studio tomorrow with my son, so I will try a few mic positions using only two mics on the "audience side" and let you know how I get on.
Another idea I had was to record the basic drums, guitar, bass, at fairly high volumes all in one room as per rehearsals and not concern myself with bleed over. My thinking on this is that a sound might be changed due to the air it is travelling through containing all the frequencies of the other instruments. Ideally trying to capture that "live sound" whilst still close micing. Has anyone any thoughts on this being a good or a bad idea?
Oct 27, 2004 11:26 pm Walt, indeed it is a great technique. I have used it before and it does work. One requires proper mics for doing it though. It is not a job done with low end mic's for sure. And as well it is not a technique I would recomend for the heavy metal drummer, or a large kit. It is as Walt said prefered for a jazz kit or a small country type kit.
DSD, the live recording thing is great. I have done many good takes going that route. But it does again require the correct mic selection for the job. Guitars miced with good off access rejection type mics, but position is important to pick up that room vibe. Drums can use something that will retain more room and air, same with horns or the like.
Positions of mics and performers is important to make it work though. And you will end up using some damping to control what gets picked up by what.
Oct 28, 2004 11:51 am Thank you Noise! I am thinking of either a couple of Oktava 012's or maybe Rode NT3's. I have another session first of the month and I will try the technique out.
DSD,
It's a great technique. It's one that I have been pursuing for some time. The band I am in and consiquently the band I record the most is a 17 piece swing/big band. I started out with a stereo pair in front of the band. Just not full, too much room influence. My "sound" in reference to recording sonics is a hybrid of live/studio per what I consider both sounds to be. Wow, I should be a politician. If you get my drift, this is the sound that I hear in my head and want to achieve. The fullness and clairty of a studio recording with the feel of a live performance. There are a lot of considerations and constraints involved. Probably the most helpfull single concept is that of critical distance. That is the distance in any room where the projected sound of an instrument equals the reflected sound in amplitude. The other is that sound travels about a foot per millisecond. With these two concepts you can excersize a great amount of control over the clarity of a recording done in a live setting. It is much more challanging then the studio technique of layering tracks, but can provide some breathtaking results.
Oct 28, 2004 04:41 pm Hey Walt, how would you say the NT3's compare with the Oktava 012's? I've been using the 012's lately for drum overheads and like them a lot. I've just been borrowing them, though, and now I want to get a pair of my own. I'd like to stay at the $100 mark, but I could be convinced otherwise :)
Oct 28, 2004 07:19 pm Mr. Muffins! Good to see Ya!
I would hang with to Okt 012's. I have gotton some real nice accoustic string instrument recordings off those fellows as well. The NT3 is well... unremarkable. I'll say it's not a bad mic and for that matter a good mic. Just never has really impressed me. Compared to the 012's or it's brother the NT1, it is just....there. It is hpyercartioid however which is why I am looking at it for a possibility in this application. May not work out even if it is too directional will have to see.
Oct 28, 2004 07:40 pm Walt
I had an excellent afternoon, got my son bashing drums whilst I fiddled with mic placement, he even ended up with a recording of his drumming and singing, he was well chuffed.
I went back up there later and recorded about 5 mins of drums. I had some interesting results. I set up 7 mics, 3 pairs and 1 over the head of the drummer. When I mixed to CD I went through one pair at a time so I have a record of the different mic configurations. It's amazing how different each pair sounded. But I must say that I got pretty good sound from each pair, a good sound on kit with 2 mics? What a rewarding afternoon. The pair that I think you were describing gave great separation and was quite a "jazzy" sound, toms sounded great. But it was a drier sound and lacked most of the low frequencies of the kick, but in all 3 cases everything could be heard perfectly. the single over head wasn't great, but for 1 mic, it was ok.
Anyway, it's going to be a good reference tool for future recordings.
Oct 28, 2004 07:55 pm DSD your the best!
That is exactly the sound I am looking for! I was wondering about the kick as well. I am thinking now of modifying the set to include a B52 on the kick. Dry is good. I will also be using a decca-tree array at the front of the band which gives plenty of "wet". The spot mics throughout the band to include those on drums are sound reinforcement so to speak in the mix.
Glad to here you and your son had a great time! I think I'm more thrilled when my kids and grand-kids play than I am when I play. One of my most thrilling moments in performance was at my youngest daugheter's wedding. Her and her brides mades came up and sang "Crazy little thing called love", my oldest daughter played flute. Proud Papa just smiled and bassed along.
Oct 29, 2004 04:45 am Walt. Yeah I thought about a mic on the kick, but wasn't sure how that would work with the overall sound of the kit, I kind of like the thin sound of the kick, it fitted, so to speak, and the pair of mics that were 7 feet high gave a truer sound of the kick, not quite a decca-tree though. I tried to upload the mp3 of my afternoons work to my homepage but it told me it was too big. I'm going back tomorrow, so will shorten it and try again. I'll let you know when ive done it so you can have a listen.
That must be a pretty cool thing to play at your daughter's wedding with their accompaniment, a proud moment indeed. It certainly is one of my joys seeing my son bashing the kit, he has no constraints of music yet which allows him to just bash and scream, wonderful! One day, I'm sure he will want to take it further and learn rhythms, but at the moment, none of that matters to him, so I just let him bash :-)
Oct 30, 2004 11:59 am Walt, heres a link to the page with my drums on. I've explained on it what I did and what mics I used, although most of them are budget mics, I'm sure that using better mics will make a difference. ther's a small amount of air EQ used but otherwise it is how it's recorded, I messed around later and brought the frequencies of the kick up with a sligh boost at around 100HZ.
dansaltdog.tripod.com/id1.html
Excuse the drumming, but I was messing around just trying to get the track down.
Oct 30, 2004 12:30 pm thats some cool drumming dan, check ya inbox...
Oct 30, 2004 07:30 pm I'm seriously impressed! You can drum for the band anytime! The one routine would fit right in with Sing, sing, sing,...and the crowd went wild!
Very sweet sound! All three combinations are well done. All have good seperation in the stereo field as well.
Ok, that does it. Gotta try it with the big band.
Thanks for the effort! That took some work!
Walt
Oct 31, 2004 07:29 am Thanks for the kind words guys.
It was fun doing it Walt, and I learnt a lot in the process. I'm about to go back up today and do a similar thing with electric guitar. You got me started on something here Walt.
Dan
Oct 31, 2004 11:23 am Oh my!
I sure have broad sholders :)
They arn't just kind words by the way, I have worked with a lot of drummers. Don't blush, just say thanks and move on.
I wish we would all do more of what you are doing. Akin to a "picture is worth a thousand words", I can read "it's the bomb", "realy good", "lame", etc. and know little more than before I read them. Now to hear results along with a good discription of equipment and set as you have provided? That is "Da Bomb"!
Glad to be responsible for such a fabulous endevor!
Oct 31, 2004 10:01 pm Gotta agree with Walt there. Nice playing, as well as the capture was very good. I gotta say you must have a pretty nice room as the sound was very tight and controlled with just a touch of room ambiance.
Nov 01, 2004 12:53 pm Yeah, the rooms a good size, an old pig shed, for pretty big pigs I reckon... And thanks for the positive feedback. I'm quite pleased with the sound from the ambient mics. When added to the close miking, the sound gets pretty punchy. I can't wait to get started on recording the band, will happen in the next month or two, if all goes according to plan.
thanks all
-Dan
Nov 02, 2004 04:37 pm Walt- Thanks a lot for your opinion on the Oktava vs. the Rode! Looks like I'll be sticking with the Oktavas for now. Maybe I'll get one for my birthday tomorrow :)
Sorry it took me so long to respond!
Nov 03, 2004 01:22 am No problem Mr. Muffins!
I am the worst for getting involved in something and not making it by the forum for indeteriminate periods of time. And congradulations on another year on the planet! Hope you get your birthday gift wish!
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