Garage sounding drums
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Posted on Mar 10, 2004 03:41 am
ponka
Member Since: Mar 10, 2004
Hi,
I know it's all about "try and error", but I still wanna' ask if any of you have had any experience with this...
I'm gonna' record my drumset in the rehearsal studio and I want that garage band kind of sound (wich is quite hot now, like The Hives and The White Stripes), some kind of 60:s sound...
I will use 4 tracks for the recording, so I guess I'll have to settle for kick, snare and two overhead/room mikes. Should I put the overheads abot 10 inces (well here in Sweden we don't use inch, and I dont know exactly how much one inch is, but still...) over the "highest" crashes or should I put them in front of the drum set instead (and use them as room mikes)? I've had them over the drum set before, but my cymbals tend to be a bit too loud and the toms a bit "dry" and not so loud... By the way, how much does the height of the overheads affect the sound?
I also would like some "ring" from the snare as well, more "shell-sound" if you know what I mean... I've had the mike about one inch from the rim, but I still would like some more of that "ring"... Since my snare rings quite a lot and I would like to put that on the track as well...
Thanx,
//Ponka, Sweden
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drayburnEmerson's Transparent EyeballMember
Since: Jan 19, 2004
Mar 10, 2004 09:58 am Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the White Stripes only used one mic on the whole drum kit, somewhere out in front- I know the Beatles did that a lot of the time and got pretty good sounds out of it. I'm sure the mic they used was up to the task- I don't know what you have.
And btw, Welcome- this site rocks, as I'm sure you'll find out.
-Dave
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 10:14 am well, on the 'elephant' album they used two on the kit the whole way through...but the more the better basically
admittedly , ive never mic'd up anything more than a bongo, but the more mics you have the better the soundll be...surely?
yeah, and welcome!
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 10:14 am hey drayburn, do you play violin btw?
GregorMember
Since: Jan 08, 2004
Mar 10, 2004 10:15 am A good rule of thumb is put your head where the mic is going to be and see if it sounds good (use logic within reason here as putting your head in a kick drum or right beside the snare might hurt)and place the mic there. Try to use a good condenser as they usually have the flatest response and will give you a good repersentation of the low's as well as highs.
GregorMember
Since: Jan 08, 2004
Mar 10, 2004 10:18 am Quote - but the more mics you have the better the soundll be...surely?
You'll have more control over the sound and this will lead to more sound options for sure, but sometimes people are just looking for that "old" sound and sounding good is all in the ear of the beholder.
Mar 10, 2004 10:20 am Quote:
but the more mics you have the better the soundll be...surely?
Well sure, and an 8-string bass sounds fuller than a 4 string...but only if you know how to use it...
Mar 10, 2004 12:40 pm The thing that I've found most difficult about recording drums is the drummer's themselves. All I've ever worked with were "live" drummers. I've never had the pleasure of working with a "studio" drummer. The problem with live drummers is they hit the drums hard and hit the cymbals even harder. I've scolded my own drummer for this. Sure it's great when they do it live, but in the studio is another story. Studio drummers don't wack the cymbals as hard. I've also seen that studio drummers tend to have their cymbals higher than live drummers. That helps with the close micing of toms.
Led Zep had some interesting drum sounds with only three mics. One kick and two overheads (triangle micing) in a very "live" sounding room.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 01:22 pm i love that much-ripped off loop from the start of when the levee breaks. top!
drayburnEmerson's Transparent EyeballMember
Since: Jan 19, 2004
Mar 10, 2004 04:29 pm Yeah, that's a great opening drum riff. And yes Flame, I do play violin, was actually classically trained from 4th grade to 12th. But now I don't play it nearly as much as I should, and the stuff I play tends to be in a more roots rock/ bluegrass style than anything else. Cause ya know, you can't improvise in an orchestra...
Mar 10, 2004 06:21 pm That is a good one Flame.... and that thing has been ripped off quite a bit.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 08:44 pm ponka, welcome to HRC and enjoy your stay.
I believe one inch equals 2.54 cm thanx to Tadpui.
As for the drum miccing, you have a good start with the kick and snare miced. I like to back the snare mic off about anywhere form 4 to 8 cm to catch a little more of the shell ringing. Keep it about 2 cm above the level of the drum head and pointed at the top corner of the shell. This may take a little moving to get it depending on the mic you use.
The kick is a pretty generic one so I wont touch that.
As for the overheads, I have used them in many differant positions, but it mostly depends again on the mic used. I prefer using a good condensor as they will be much better suited for this. You can use ither a small diaphram for a brighter sound or a large diaphram which will get a much fuller asound and pick up a bit more room soudn as well. If you have allready tried them directly above the kit and didnt like it then move them out in front of the kit starting at about 1 meter. This again mya take some varying as it is not a perfect art, and each room will be differant. If you wish to pick up more of the toms and such then the height may be as low as 1 1/2 meter. But be aware this will also pick up the kick as well. I have gotten a good sound with a pretty open room by placing them about 1 1/2 meters out and about 2 meters height.
The spread from center will vary as well but I usually start at about 1 meter off center, (2 meters between the two mics) and then vary the distance to taste from there.
Remember to check the phase of the mics as well befoer commiting to tape.
As a side note, I visited your bands website allready, and liked the music you guys are playing, very good stuff. Do you know if your discs are available in the US or not? I would surely buy one.
Good luck let us know if ya need more info.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 08:45 pm Oh and as another side note. Watch out for thread hi-jackings, they tend to happen here frequantly. :-)
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Mar 10, 2004 08:54 pm BTW, 1 inch = 2.54 centimeters or 25.4 millimeters :)
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 09:53 pm My best results getting a garage sound are by using a garage. Any hard surfaced, accusticaly "hot" room will do. Size is important, (where have I heard that before?) you need a little room to let the kit "breath". Finally, the overheads are going to get the room effects. Directly above the cymbles, but catching the radiation of the whole kit, a little higher than normal will capture the room. The higher the overheads the more room effects. Blend in any other seperate head mics to alter the % of room involved. If there is preceiveble difference bettween any of the head mics and the overheads treat with verb preferably one with room size, width, pre-delay, and delay. I used my service garage for one recording session and it was great! The Mercedes on the hoist gave a real tight timber rattle while the Chevy just rattled like @#$%.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 10, 2004 10:51 pm Thanx Tadpui, I thought it was cm but wasnt sure. And dont ask were the 2,75 came from either. Been along day at work. Now Ill go back and change my post.
At least I knew my meter was correct.
Mar 10, 2004 11:11 pm first off i am the drummer and recording engineer in my band and im anal about my drum sounds .
as most people hear suggested the overheads and room sound are super important to the sound you are goin for. one thing i do if i want that vintage sound is turn up the gain on a mic pre just enough so a little hissing noise distortion sound comes through when there is no sound. and my favorite to get that sound is to close mic everything and have everything gated and super compressed. then take a tube condenser(large diaphram) with a lot of low end pickup all the way across the room pointed at a corner of the ceiling you will get tons of sound fron the drums and natural reverb from the corner. when mixing use mostly the condenser mic and add the sound of the close mics just enough to add a little punch to the mix.--i could go on for hours about things i've done for drum sounds.
ponkaMember
Since: Mar 10, 2004
Mar 11, 2004 03:08 am Thank you guys for your attention!
Noize2u: Thanks for the kind words about our band! If you want a copy, we can arrange that... Wich songs did you listen to? Some of 'em are recorded in a proffessional studio with tons of mikes (I bet the engineer used at least 15 mikes...), but still we wern't really sattisfied with the sound. It's a bit "too good" if you get my point. Other songs are recorded by ourselves in the very same rehearsal studio we're gonna use this time. All live (except for the vocals and some guitar/synth licks) through a sheap mixer to two tracks in stereo on the mini disc recorder.
We used some sheap dynamic mikes (samson or whatever) as overheads about 1/2 a metre over the cymbals and 1 metre between them. Then a sure mike (cheap one too) about 10 cm from the rim of the snare and one AKG D112 for the kick.
I came to realize that I wanted more ring out of the snare when it was already too late, but I think I got that when I tried out the mike closer to the snare, I'll try that again this time. I'll also try some big diaphram condensers to catch more of the room, and maybe put 'em in front of the kit instead to avoid the loud cymbals, since I'm a heavy hitter... (well tose tracks suffer from some awful digital distortion as well, I guess I wasn't careful enaugh with the gain on the overheads and I used no compression). By the way, I've heard that that compression is very often used on the overheads/room mikes. Any tips on ratio, attack/release time and threshold? Should I use it during recording or later in the mix?
//Ponka
drummer of The Straydogs, lofi pop from Sweden
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Mar 11, 2004 07:47 am your band sounds class man, cant wait to hear what ya come up with. i love the stripes and the hives and all that stuff
good luck!
Mar 11, 2004 10:08 am i would stay away from compression on the overheads so you dont sqaush the decay of the cymbals. cymbals sound terrible when compressed unless it is used for an effect, well actually they can sound ok compressed but very very littel compression. like threshold between -10 and - 15 and a ratio of 3 or 4 to 1. keep in mind it will level out the sound and since the higher frequencies of the cybals stand out more at the same volume, the cymbals will most likey sound too loud in the final mix-----btw that akg 112 is an awesome drum mic that produces alot of punch and thump, more so than you need for that "garage sound" i would try a crappy mic on the kick so it wont stand out
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 11, 2004 06:36 pm Well, I liked the sound of stuck with love as for getting that garage sound. back on track was a much richer and fuller sound, very good bottom end and nice drum mix. I liked the drums on that one as well as the guitar sound. The synth riff was a nice addition.
Come on(give me a try) had a very kool sound as well, I think you got a bit more ring on the snare on that one, at least I thought the snare had a very full and load punch.
Did you ever also caught me with its hook. It reminded me a bit of Mathew Sweet
Your vocal tracks all sound very well done, whatever processing you are doing is working great, and the harmony parts dont bury the lead vocalist which is great as well. I have to say, I expected to hear an accent in the vocals and you guys english sounds very good in you tunes. I have several friends you work for a manufacturer there called Nord and they all have the thickest accents.
I should just say I pretty much liked em all but those four caught me right away. A couple of tracks reminded me of a local band here from the seventy's called the Flamin OH's.
If you please also had some very raw sound to it, nice very nice.
I couldnt get at any of the ones on angilfire as they wouldnt connect.
As far as compressing the overheads, I agree with using a very light compression if you need to. You can bring it up a bit if the mic's are low enough height wise, but it will suck a little life out of the cymbals for sure.
Anyway, yes indeed I would be interested in aquiring one of your CD's. I try to get something from artists who are members of HRC when they have something available. If you wish use my email link and I can forward you an address.
Looking forward to hearing more form you guys. I think you would be big hit over here in the states.
Noize 2 U
PS: I added your bands website into our links directory under bands and music.
ponkaMember
Since: Mar 10, 2004
Mar 12, 2004 03:14 am Thank you, feels good that u guys over there also like it! It would be awsome to come over and play in the US sometime... ;-)
As for the songs:
'Back on track' - A really old song (2000 I think) before we really knew how we wanted to sound... Recorded in a studio, sounds a bit to "clean" if you ask me...
'Stuck with love' is one of the tracks recorded by ourselves in the rehearsal room, 'Did you ever' as well. Thats more like we want to sound today, the recording could have been better though... We didn't quite knew how to use the recorder, compression etc back then... we still don't and thats why I'm here... ;-)
On 'Come on' and 'If you please' we tried to get that vintage "garage" sound in the real studio (with lots of mikes...), but didn't really succeed. I tundet out a bit to bombastic... We want it pretty simple and dry, but still kind of live lofi...
As for the processing on the vocals, we use some distortion. When we recorded by ourselves, we "processed" the vocals trough a Fender Twin Reverb guitar amp, I think it souns very good...
Take care!
//Ponka
ponkaMember
Since: Mar 10, 2004
Mar 12, 2004 03:16 am Sorry for my bad spelling by the way, I'm not THAT bad at English...
//Ponka
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Mar 12, 2004 09:41 am hey man, like it
top!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 13, 2004 06:00 pm Not to worry about bad spelling, I am guilty as well most of the time.
The use of the Twin Reverb for tweaking the vocal is pretty kool.
From alot of the music I have listened to you guys do have a pretty good sound for the most part and I honestly think some of the older ones you dont care for as much sound great as well.
ponkaMember
Since: Mar 10, 2004
Apr 14, 2004 03:42 am Hi again,
The date for the recording is now set. The mikes that comes with the hard disc recorder is one AKG D550 (kick) and two MXL 1006 large diaphram (overhead/room mikes) and then I'll add a SM57 on the snare. Do you think that'll do?
//Ponka
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Apr 19, 2004 09:30 pm Hey ponka sorry for the late reply here. Surprised someone else hasnt jumped in.
I am sure they should work out well. You may find you want to try some differant placement stratagies with the over heads to see what sounds best.
The mic's on the kick and snare are a good idea as they are the driving force of the drums.
With the overheads remember to try and get them placed so they not only pick up the kit but get some of the room as well. This will also help bring down the cymbals a bit as some overhead set ups tend to get real heavy with the brass sounds.
