complete danzig cover song

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Member Since: Jan 18, 2003

www.nowhereradio.com/arti...785&alid=-1

'dominion'

as a way to get some practice in on mixing and mastering without waiting another year for my material to develop, i went and tried my best on this danzig cover song, called 'dominion.' it took about a week i guess, in my spare time.

i would welcome any criticism. and i can't wait to get listening to all the stuff on this board. as soon as i move out of here (get my own listening space) and get my computer (which has speakers) connected to the net i plan to do a whole lot more listening on HRC.

i see about 3 of what i consider major problems in this song, and i was wondering if theyre noticible. can you spot them?

aside from that, i'm still looking to polish this up some more, make it sound more...punchy, and definitely more integrated. i used a bunch of waves plugins over at my friends house (i'd love to own that stuff) but because i had limited time there and am naturally intimidated by a lot of that stuff, i stuck with presets (and made notes for some later figuring). i used L2 hard limiting on the distorted chorus guitars. there are two guitars there with two different distortions, panned in the 30-40 range left and right. (i didn't use any signal processing on the verse guitars, but now that i listen, they sound a bit unruly, no?)

i'm not sure if i've EQ'ed the vocals to sit well in the mix, but they seem to be sounding like they almost fit, at least in the verse. i used a waves tripling effect preset on them, and did a notch somewhere in the mids. (and yet for the chorus, they seem like they don't sit well?)

the whole thing is mastered in ozone through the '4 band rock master with EQ, exciter, and widening' preset.

would any of this be considered wrong?

as a final note, there's the distinct possibility that this will sound like garbage, depending on your speakers. i mix in walkman headphones and test-run it through my car stereo. the mix sounded almost decent to me in headphones and just 'ok' in the stereo.

thanks for listening if you listen, and thanks for putting up with me as i very slowly absorb information across the span of years.
forty

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Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003

Feb 03, 2004 02:48 am

I've never heard the original so I can't compare, but your version sounds great to me! I just might have to check out some Danzig. :)

The only problems as far as how it sounds on my phones are:

The vocals and drums on the chorus could stand to be brought more to the front, and the bass was pretty weak. Even as is though I think it sounds great really. Love the sound of the guitars verse & chorus. Very good job on the vocals, you've got a really good range and dynamics going there, and from the chorus, sounds to me like you could really nail an Ozzy tune (and thats a compliment :).

Really good job Forty!

Dan

Freeleance Producer/Engineer/Gtr
Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002

Feb 03, 2004 11:42 am

When i was younger i was a danzig freak and this album was last one i liked. This is a good cover, not a far departure. IMO the drums get drowned out, mainly the kick, during the choruses... how did you make that flutter sound in the first part of the song?

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 03, 2004 12:27 pm

thanks a bunch for listening, dan & elmusico.

i've had a tough time mixing the chorus. turning up one thing drowns out another. if i turn those vocals up much more, they become piercing. and the bass level in a previous mix was absolutely killing the guitar which is why i started to bring it down (might have taken it too far.)i'm assuming this means that i didn't do a great job of frequency seperation, and the sounds are competing. i'll have to listen for the drum level now...i didn't notice that.

elmusico, the flutter sound was a flute patch from my triton. i drew volume envelopes in, to fade it slightly.

you guys might wanna check out some recent danzig. i once thought danzig 3 would be the last acceptable danzig album. then the 'zig came back in a big way with danzig 6, in my opinion. and 7 was great. and there'll be a new one out in a few months. can't wait!

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 03, 2004 12:45 pm

one other question: a friend just told me the mix was 'quiet.' i didn't use compression or limiting on the final mixdown. although my natural impulse is to apply hard limiting to everything, i've read a lot about not squashing the life out of things. and so i held off, specifically to ask here. compressing a final mix is different from compressing individual instruments, no? should i use a compressor, and if so, what settings might do the job? to let it breathe, still have dynamics, and be punchy?

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Feb 03, 2004 12:52 pm

Sounds like you would be better off using a maximizer rather than a compressor. While they do sorta the same thing, a maximizer, such as Waves L1 for example, I often times find far more effective in getting the punch without sacrificing the dynamics (unless you really over do it).

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 03, 2004 09:05 pm

thanks db...imma try that. thanks for listening, you all. thanks for the compliments too. i was worried about the vocals but thanks, dan, for the nice compliment.


Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003

Feb 03, 2004 10:18 pm

I know all about trying to bring one thing up and messing up something else. <G>

If you have Ozone 3 the maximizer in it works really good and the multiband compressor might help you bring some bottom to it and get the drums in the chorus more up front without hurting the rest of the mix.

I'm still trying to figure out the "scooping" with EQ, not having very good results yet, so simple in theory but so hard in practice. :)

At any rate even if you do little to nothing else to it, I honestly think it sounded great. :)

Dan

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 04, 2004 12:12 am

i think my friend has ozone 2. i'll look for a similar patch in there. thank you again!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Feb 04, 2004 09:31 pm

Well done forty, I am a Danzig fan going back to his days with the Misfits, to bad he almost denies having been with them these days as they were really great then.

Anyway, I think you did a splendid job on the cover as well. I will admit you did a pretty good job for mixing in walkman headphones. But I'll through my two cents in along with the others.

There seems to be a lot of mid-highs goin on in the mix which is maybe what is hiding soem of the drum and so-on. What you might do is go back and get each track sounding as splendid as you can on its own. Then start adding them back together. The guitar sounds are prety good as is, form what I can tell. I would work more on finding a way to give the drums and bass a bit of a bigger sound. Then try to give the vocal more presence via some judicious EQ. For the most part the vocal stands up well , but it does get hidden behind the guitars at times.

I am sure with the right moniters and all you can get the mix just right, but as I said before for mixing in the headphones you said you mixxed in it sound pretty good.

Messing in Ozone may give you some ideas to try, and dont be afraid to twiddle the knobs, dont just go with the presets. Cant wait to hear were you go from here with it.

Peace

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 05, 2004 02:27 am

thanks noize. you're right--the vocals are getting lost in the guitar. the mids and highs are bugging me, which makes me 'split' on the issue of the exciter, which was a part of the ozone treatment i used. it really makes things sparkle, but it does really emphasize that part of the spectrum so i guess i have to make sure to compensate for that beforehand.

thanks for giving it a listen. it was a learning experience.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Feb 05, 2004 09:20 pm

I would think you should be able to back off the high end a bit in the exciter so as not to get toomuch high end in there. Not sure though as I havent opened Ozone in a while.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

Feb 06, 2004 10:00 pm

Forty,

I am redicent to comment as I am not familiar with Danzig. But as I have really enjoyed a lot of what you have turned out I will make comment, please take it with a grain of salt. I disagree with some of the comment above, no offence just following my ears. Each "voice" in the piece sounds very clear to me. Very clean capturing of sounds. The mids in the keys and guitar are overpowering, but I don't see "scooping" them per their clarity. They just seem to be sitting wrong in the mix. Compression may help if you don't mind loosing some of the dynamic feel of the piece. Moving them further to the edges of the mix may also work "less overall preceived volume as apposed to being center and in the face". The bottom end is missing for me. Very little bass. The last approach I would consider is riding the faders. Personally I would take another look at the mix and get the "voices" into perspective. I don't know that excitation is what you need as much as use of the maximizer. Your recording is so clean that you can probably push this piece a lot before it exhibits excess distortion. Some distortion is preceived as volume so I believe you have a lot of latitude. Where did you apply reverb? I am hearing different rooms for each voice as well. Maybe this is a desired effect, I don't know, but the vocals seem dry in comparision to especially the percussion. You might want to try adding room effect reverb in Ozone if you are not already. This will even out the theator.

With all that babble, I have to agree with Noise. For using walkman headphones the mix is phenominal!

Man, it is all there! And well captured! I just doesn't jump out and grab. You gotta finish this one up!

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 06, 2004 10:39 pm

hey man thanks for the honesty. i find myself in agreement with everyone. sometimes i dont recognize something i'm noticing until i see it typed out by one of you guys.

my comments on your comment:

i am puzzled by unanimous feeling of no bass. even my friends who dont go to this board have said the bass is bad. and yet while the chorus is overpowered by mids (even i can hear that) the bass is coming through alright on my headphones for the verses. in fact i turned the bass down from a previous mix because it was dominating. guess i'll have to toy with it. i have a single bass track in the center, i think. is that a bad move?

maximizer, yes. i have to get to that.

i can't resist using the ozone mastering preset i've discovered. perhaps i should use it but turn down the exciter.

i'm surprised you find the vocals dry. i was very worried about over-effecting them. so i ran them thorugh my pod's naked tube emulator, with just a touch of 'verb. then i used a waves tripling effect and thought i should stop there so as not to overdo them. one thing i know: i dont want the vocals to sound too effected. i thought they had nearly the right kind of presence in the verse but didnt stand up at all in the chorus.

reverb: i was just experimenting with reverb effects in the background vocals and on the flute and piano. often i love it when a mix uses disparate reverbs, like in a certain NIN song i can't recall the name of right now where a riff goes dry for a while then becomes completely lush in an instant as the guitars enter and swamp the mix. so i was playing around with that, but i agree: it didn't work. the 'chopped up' lead-in to the backing vocals was also treated with a heavy reverb. those vox sounds different the instant the stutter effect cuts out, and it sounds jarring. i guess my working reverb philsophy is that the drums must be reverbed uniformly. probably the drums and the bass and rhythm guitar have to at least sound like theyre in similiar rooms. beyond that i am looking to experiment a bit. better luck next time, though. i'm done with this mix for a while.

thanks y'all.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

Feb 06, 2004 11:01 pm

Forty,

I think you expressed the vocal reverb better than I with the "similar room" excerpt. They are only dry in comparison to other parts of the mix. Not necessaraly dry in and of themselves. Personally, I like to move the bass to one side a little. So many overtones in bass and so easy to muddy everything with the mids. Kinda oppisite that of the guitar and keyboard, by moving the bass out I can get more volume per less mud to bury the keyboard and guitar. There's always scooping the bass to at around 80 which Jues mentioned and I found effective. You can get more bottom power that way without so much competition. It bugs me to scoop the bass only because I am a bassist and well...Im sure my predjudice is obvious.

Oh by the way, noticed I forgot to mention; Nice flute very tasty!

sloppy dice, drinks twice
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 08:07 am

fortymile - ok, I heard the song over the weekend. Unfortunately I had no time to post a review. Today, at work, I have time between calls to post a review, but I can't get to your song because Nowhere radio is blocked at my work. So here's a short review from memory...
I liked the song. It struck me as a little "quiet" overall. I have never heard the original, so I can't compare. I thought that the instrumental parts were excellent and the vocals quite good as well. Nice job!

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 01:25 pm

thank you tin. you guys have given a lot of helpful suggestions that will hopefully make the next one turn out better. i've got listener fatigue on this one. i surely didn't do a lot of things right, but it's cool that it doesn't seem to have overtly annoyed any of you reviewers. i should be well armed for the next project.

Bane of All Existence
Member
Since: Mar 27, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 01:52 pm

hey this rocks...right on! my note of constructive criticism would be to check the tuning on the keys...it sounds a little sharp to me. go forty!

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 01:58 pm

you did it! you're the only one who caught my favorite 'major problem' that i alluded to in my very first post, minkus!

i tuned my guitar to the keys, and the guitar drifted ever so slightly, and then i tuned my bass to the guitar, and danm it! now i'd either have to re-record every stringed instrument part, including the solo, or else go into the triton and tune the thing down by like 3 cents and re-record that! which i dont know how to do, although i know it's possible. i'm just lazy. this song is over.

Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 05:07 pm

I heard the slight off tune forty but thought it was intentional so I didn't mention it. :)
Now had it been more you would definitley have heard about it from me. LOL

I never tune one instrument to another for that very reason, I always use a tuner, and I always check each instrument prior to recording it. Now too bad I can't do that for my voice <G>

Dan

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 16, 2004 06:19 pm

haha thats so weird man. youre the second person who said they thought the off-tuning was intentional (a friend of mine noticed it).


Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Feb 18, 2004 07:51 pm

It wasnt?

...bringing sexy back
Member
Since: Jul 01, 2002

Feb 19, 2004 08:13 am

i wouldnt've admitted to that myself. "yeah, that bum note's MEANT to be there'

never heard any digzig before..its alright

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 19, 2004 12:34 pm

digxig is better at digzig than i am at dygzg.


I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Feb 27, 2004 08:59 am

Man Forty you've got a good voice. I've never heard the original of this so I don't have a comparision point.

I love the guitar tone. Its good and punchy. the open low E string rings out well, and there is lots of room for dynamics (it's not squashed).

I'm listening on headphones and the bass frequencies sound fine to me. Maybe there's some characteristic about it that makes them come thru on headphones and not on larger speakers.

The mix is quiet as a whole. If you figure out how to fix that, tell me how you did it because all of my mixes so far suffer from the same thing!

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your own material soon.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003

Feb 27, 2004 10:44 pm

thanks mang! i am surprised by the nice comments. i plan to use that waves thing eventually as soon as kevin gets back down here. i forget what its called. the maximizer thing. waves ultra-something. i'll look up in one of these threads what its called. and i'll be sure to maximize everything i do from here on.
thanks for listening tadpui

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