Some help reqd!!!
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Posted on Jan 12, 2004 06:24 pm
cocofromscotland
Hello!
Member Since: Jan 12, 2004
Hi Guys
I've read your forum with interetst and must say - you guys know yer stuff!!
Anyway, I am a singer/songwriter/guitarist and have been doing the above for some 10 years+ to varying degrees of success on a small scale.
I now have taken the leap and want to record all my stuff using my PC, collection of geetars and the equipment I currently have so I have a few questions:
1. I use (guitars) a Fender Strat, Epi Les Paul and Ovation Accoustic. How best to record these? I have a VAmp Pro 2 (Behringer) and this sounds great from my amp but no so "loud" via the PC.
2. My machine is: P/Bell with a 2.1 processor, 700MB DDR RAM and an internal Sigmatel Audio C Major card (want to upgrade - which is a. best b. cheap for single audio recording i.e. guitar then vox??).
3. I have just ordered a Behringer Mic100 Preamp for recording VOX (which I Hope will do the job) any input on this? I'll be fiiring straight into the Line In on my Sigmatel.
4. I use Cakewalk 9.03 for everything and like it a lot. I feel Im not fufilling its true use tho as I am no expert (yet!).
How can I get the best input for guitar and vox based on this stuff? SHould I be firing in my gear as loud as possible and lowering the line in on the soundcard (Crappy windows XP volume thing) or the other way around?
Also how do I compress vocals?? I've no got the preamp yet for VOX but hope it will boost ma signal as Ive previously been using the Vamp Pro for VOX via the non cabinet, emulated tube preamp (too quiet).
All help, advice and offerings greatly apprecaited!!
Cheers...
CocoFromScotland!
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Jan 12, 2004 06:32 pm Hey, Welcome to HRC!
Sounds like you have the makings of a decent home/project studio, only I have no idea what a "Sigmatel Audio C Major card" really is?!?! The little info I could find leads me to believe it's a stock, integrated soundcard that really isn't built for recording. I dare say that a simple $200 upgrade to an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear , Delta 44 service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear , a little Editrol adapter service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear or something more made for recording would fix a lot of your probs.
The VAmp is capable of good recordings, you guitars are nice, the app is good (Tho Cakewalk Sonar is better :-) So it leads me to believe your integrated sound card at this point is the weak link. As is often the case with integrated sound codecs, as they are made more for gaming and other one directional sound (like sound only going out, not more than one channel ever going IN).
If I am incorrect about my assumption of your sound device, please correct me and link me to further info about it.
Again, welcome to HRC!
dBFromtheUSA :-D
Jan 12, 2004 06:43 pm Yep - you are spot on my friend!
Intergrated and absolute rubbish for recording! I was considering getting a Creative Audigy 2 card for about £60 ($100?) - is this any good or should I go straight for the M-Audio type cards (though I am a bit skint - cheaper the better!)
As I say, I'm just recording everything myself (cant get the staff these days!!) and using simple midi drums/piano roll for the rest.
I thank you for your comments though and as I suspected - you just cant get "blood out a stone" or in my case "sound out a Sigmatel sound card!!"
I have Sonar XL 2.2 as well but cant get a good handle on this! Cake is a bit easier..are there many advantages over Cake with Sonar?? AS I Say, I have it, but just dabbled so far - bit lazy tho I will get into it when I "see" results!!
Thanks again..
Jan 12, 2004 07:05 pm Yes, Sonar 2.2 support ASIO drviers, of which M-Audio has stellar ASIO support. ASIO provides very low "latency" (which is the time it takes sound from entering the sound card to the time it comes out the speakers, it's measured in milliseconds). SoundDisaster cards are used by a few people here successfully, but recording is not their intended purpose. That said, it's WAY better than the integrated one you have now. M-Audio, or any ASIO driven sound card will give you MUCH better performance.
Sonar 2.2 is a GREAT program, I just upgraded to Sonar 3 myself, but 2.2 is a huge improvement from Cakewalk 9 in terms of usability, features, performance and the overal sound quality. I would definately recommend taking time to get to know it better, it would be well worth the investment of the time.
Jan 12, 2004 07:07 pm Hey, I see you are a web designer dude as well :-)
It's what I do all day every day myself :-D
Jan 12, 2004 07:27 pm welcome to the place!
olddogMember
Since: Jul 02, 2003
Jan 12, 2004 08:51 pm Welcome to HRC!
dB pretty much covered your questions, and He's right about the soundcards. If $100 is your limit the Audigy 2 does a fine job (I use one), but if you can afford it I'd go for one of the other cards mentioned looking down the road. :)
Dan
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 12, 2004 10:35 pm And again, welcome to HRC, glad ya found us. I am the resident Cakewalk freak, although there are many of us here now. I have been using their product since the very first sequancer they did for the Atari computer.
Most of your questions have been answered very well. I will only add a couple of things. If you must go with an SB Audigy make sure you use the WDM drivers and get the most up to date drivers you can. This will make things run so much smoother. I am with the others on the fact that if you can squeeze it, definately go with and M-Audio or the like card for the auiod interface. You will find it much more suited for recording work. Sonar 2.2 as dB said is a much better platform then the Pro audio level of Cakewalk. Not to say the Pro Audio is not good, but if you have 2.2 you should give it an honest shot. It is not that big of a jump and the advantages are so much better. The ability to run Soft synths and the like are the biggest plus for sure. Especially if you are doing it all. I am the same here, I do all my work in Sonar save for ssome sample work done in Sound forge.
Anyway, make yourself at home here and ask away. We try to take the best route, and truly this forum was built around the home studio as well as the pro level, so we do still find the budget stuff usable and will try to help ya through most situations.
Again, welcome and enjoy your stay.
Noize 2 U
Jan 13, 2004 06:42 am Hi Folks - thanks for the warm welcome and all the useful replies - I will take all this on board and see what pennies I can get my grubby little mits on :-p
I will also try to get to know Sonar. I dont know why, but is somehow feels a bit more "busy" than Pro Audio 9 - but, if you guys reckon its worth the effort, then I will give it a try, being as I have it now anyway!!
As for the Soundcard, I'm in the UK, so prices are roughly equivelant to £1 to $1.85 so, maybe, I can try and see if the wife, god bless her, will notice if I can whip some dough from other "important" projects (like home alterations!!) to channeling some dosh into my Studio - trouble is, being a non-muso she doesn't see the finer points and apprecaite the artform - its just a "Yeh, oh, thats greaaat" .. hmm :-(
Ideally, I am looking to hook up the Vamp2 to the Line In? (correct methinks?) and also the Behringer Mic100 pre-amp job (which arrives Friday!!) to the line in also (obviously at different times!) and then record my Geetarrs and Vocals as seperate tracks, with levels adjusted in Cakewalk/Sonar :-) then mixed down to CD (I'll come back to you guys for that!!).
So, if I can get a card for this use, and this use only, happy I will be. If y'all reckon an Audigy is next to uselss, I will see what I can do. Based on my need of recording just 1 part at a time i.e. guitars then vocals, would the M-Audio card be the best bet? I would obviously look for top notch quality (cant seem to get decent sound with the rubbish card I have just now) with no need for lots of input as I am the "one man band"!!! :-) - all within a reasoanble budget! Not wanting much I know :-p
So...thats me dilema for now! I get the card, sort out the vocals with the preamp, guitars thru the Vamp and sorted!
Thanks again to you all for your most valued input - this is a most useful site for the musician who knows what to say, how to say it but just cant get it down to CD!!!
Jan 13, 2004 06:57 am I do most of my music myself, or one track at a time from friends, so I am in a similar situation as you and I use the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and it works great. It has stero ins and stereo outs. Which, if used cleverly can be two seperate ins via a panning. It also has MIDI in and out, S/PDIF in and out as well.
To make the most of the two ins, rather than having to plug in and unplug the jack all the time, you may want to consider a small mixer to make routing easier and quicker as well (plus the benefits of effects loops, preamps and the other goodies of a mixer...something like a Behringer 1204UB would be wonderful for your situation service.bfast.com/bfast/c...mp;bfmtype=gear as it has sub-busses out to isolate what you are recording from what is playing back...not totally necessary...but surely a help...
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Jan 13, 2004 07:48 am $200 upgrades to M-Audio's 2496 card are only for people who hate eBay, db.... :) I saw them for $125. Check this out, cocofromscotland:
search.ebay.com/search/se...ry=m-audio+2496
Since I just realized that db is probably quoting the affiliate-linked price at you, I would also add that the money saved on an eBay purchase would be well spent at HRC. Free ice cream with every pro membership... Plus private forums, online collaboration, audio file hosting...
I got my 2496 at eBay for about $140 after shipping. I record single tracks with it, using a small mixer (Behringer MX602a) and the rig works great. I would definitely recommend getting a mixer to make your life easier! :)
Welcome to HRC....
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Jan 13, 2004 07:52 am btw, the free ice cream remark was an inside joke... (which pro members get) I don't mean to imply that you would receive a sticky, gooey, dripping package of melted ice cream from the states upon becoming a member... :)
Jan 13, 2004 07:52 am Yeah, for people that want warranties, working products and support available don't buy thru eBay.
And yes, whenever I quote a price it's from Musician's Friend...while I appreciate people getting the best deal on their products, I also appreciate residual income from commission sales to help pay for the costs of running this site, which, for the last six months HASN'T and I am tired of paying the bill out of my ******' pocket.
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Jan 13, 2004 08:18 am that's the reason for the hrc pro plug, db.
Jan 13, 2004 08:28 am I understand that TCB. But, in the position we are in, like many hobby-operated .com's, the more revenue streams the better.
And on top of that I have A LOT of experience with eBay and few have been positive...so I don't promote it either, even though I know many that love it, like yourself, I tend to trust my own experience over anyone elses opinions...just like most peeps.
I think many people seriously underestimate what a guy like me puts in to running a site like this. The expense, the hours, the sponsor and affiliate relationship management and everything else that goes on to keep this site, or any site of this size, online.
Yes, as it sounds, I am again entering the "burned out" phase of the HRC project, which means I step back and take some time off so I don't totally freak out...I get this way when I put tons of time into it for a while, little rewards come back from it (like the last six months or so) and I sit back and say "why do I do this?"
Jan 13, 2004 09:29 am if you like the sound of the VAmp thru your guitar amp, you might try mic'ing the amp:
guitar > VAmp > amp > mic > preamp > soundcard
the actual amplifier and speakers are as much a part of the sound as the pickups etc. give it a try.
Jan 13, 2004 09:48 am Or, better yet, in line with what Jamie said, reocrd by miking the cab AND direct. Use your left input for the mic and your right for the direct signal and have both, it can give a VERY ballsy sound...after you record them you can pan them wherever you want in the software, using left and right would simply be a tool to get both signals into Cakewalk isolated from each other.
Jan 13, 2004 03:23 pm Aye - you guys are good!
Thanks for all your help so far. I'll defo consider the card upgrade as I think this could make a big difference.
Quick question tho: When recording to Cakewalk/Sonar - what sort of LEVEL do I want on the monitor? I think I am cutting my own throat by getting clipping purposely? Also, when I get the signal in, should it be hitting the red/amber or what sort of db number should I be going for?
When I do get the sound in and its too low, is there any bother with just using "increase 3db" to the top of the meter then lower the sound with the mix?? (before mixdown itself)
Cheers guys and thanks for all yer help so far.
Coco.
Jan 13, 2004 03:25 pm just keep the highest peak below 0 to avoid clipping...via limiting, compressing or just having the volume down...by whatever means necessary keep it below 0 at ALL times.
Digital clipping is nasty...
Jan 13, 2004 03:34 pm Okely Dokely...
forgive my stupidity - the volume I take it you mean the "Line In" volume?
Also, the compressor/limiter etc, do you mean front end i.e. before it enters Cake/Sonar? If so, no can do as dont have the gear (yet)!
Thanks as always!
Coco.
Jan 13, 2004 03:40 pm yes, I mean before it enters the sound card, if you don't have gear, then you just need to keep the volume down, cuz it can not be allowed over 0. To be safe I generally go to about -1 or -2 to allow headroom in mixing...
And "the volume" in question is the volume that registers on the mock "LED" in your application or your sound card control panel.
Jan 13, 2004 04:01 pm Gotcha!
Its the simple wee things like that, that I just didnt know! That, coupled with a dodgy sound card makes life a tad difficult!
I'll get there yet tho..thanks again.
Coco.
Jan 13, 2004 05:51 pm By the way, dB, I have just got back into trying Sonar 2.2 XL again and after setting the drivers (MME) the Midi now works properly!! Using the Microsoft GS Wavetable (dunno what this is) but what I have noticed is the drums sound far better using Sonar than they did in Cakewalk or am I just going mad??
Anyway, I am DEFO perservering with this now cause I am feeling benefits already (now drivers are sorted). All I need is that new card you all talk off and sorted I will be!
Ta again!
Coco.
Jan 13, 2004 06:30 pm No, you;'re not going mad (based on that anyway ;-) Noize2u (another site admin) tried to get me to use Cakewalk for years and I never liked the sound of it, even though the usability and features were good, but with Sonar I was sold on it, the usability is stil awesome, better even and now the sound quality is better, plus they support ASIO now.
MME is the lowest performance driver there is for Microsoft platforms, but when you upgrade your card you will get WDM or ASIO drivers which you will see serious improvements from.
Jan 13, 2004 06:51 pm Good..glad am no going mad!
By the way, I have a Tascam 4 track (Tape jobbie!) - can this be used as a psuedo mixer or will it sound tiny and crap???
Tried it with Mic's for a preamp (tho just ordered a new one so this wont be as much of an issue). Could it be the soundcard again causing the rubbish sound or is it the Tascam??
I used the rca from the tascam to 1/4 into the Line In, with a 3.5mm adapter??
Coco...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 13, 2004 08:00 pm the Tascam mya be coloring the sound a bit mut not sure how much. The best way to find out is to record a simple tone going through the Tascam, and then do the same on the next rack going straight in. Then you can A/B the tracks and compre the sound. You can even zoom in on the wave to see the differance if there is any.
And glad your giving Sonar a chance. I have tried all the others and just find myself at home with it.
As far as any processing of audio, remember you have tons of effects in Sonar. And dB is correct about not recording to hot, keep it to a minimum and then you can normalize later. Or when it comes time to master, the final can be maximised to the fullest at that point.
Jan 14, 2004 06:49 am Thanks for that. I'll try that. The Behringer Pre-Amp Ultragain Mic 100 I ordered is No longer available as its apparently been returned to the shop too many times by to many folk!!
So, I am gonny go and try use Sonar, Sound Forge and see if I can get a good signal via the Vamp 2 (there is a tube preamp setting in that, apparetnly which can be used for clean vox?) - try it will!!
I have also just ordered some custom cables from my local electronics store which I HOPE will help. I've got 10m of RCA > 3.5mm and also 5m of 2 x 1/4 (for vamp output left and right) > 3.5mm so it will go straight into the Sound Card? Any input on the validity of this?? Hopefully I wil get the stereo sound which may also beef it up a bit?? I'll soon find out!
Anyway, as ever, I thank yi all for your help in this setting up of my humble wee studio!!
Coco.
Jan 14, 2004 06:55 am www.homerecordingconnecti...story&id=26
get some cable, some jacks and plugs and a soldering iron and make your own cables, can save a ton of money and make top-quality cables doing it.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jan 14, 2004 08:52 pm coco, indeed tracking the V-amp in stereo will bain a good amount of fullness. One thing to make sure of is if it has cabinet emulation to be sure that is on so it will give a much fuller sound when recording direct.
Jan 15, 2004 04:05 pm Yep..will do.
I am also gonny use the Vamp for my Mic on tube preamp (no cab) for vocals...it has a very strong signal on the Sonar monitor (in fact its half way up with the Line In turned away down!!!).
So, I think, with stereo it'll be even better! Wahey!
Coco.
