The war revisited
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Posted on Jul 11, 2003 07:42 am
glynb
Member Since: Dec 16, 2002
Whats the public feeling like in the US now the dust has settled on the Iraq thing?
Things are hotting up over here for our Government as it emerges that there aren't any W.O.M.D. to be found and the case put to the people of the UK was exagerated to say the least. People are now saying 'What was it all for, was it necessary?'
Especaily as more and more soldiers are dying each day during 'the peace'.
Is the same thing going on over where you guys are?
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Jul 11, 2003 07:46 am I have a hard time saying that the dust has settled. SInce we have lost 70-some-odd-people since "the fighting ended". Now that the oppressed have been freed they are telling us to leave.
Personally, I think we should. We did our job, they were happy at the beginning, now they want us to leave, we should, let them rebuild their own ****** country if that's the way they want.
I was listening to some talk radio this morning about this very topic so I am all worked up right now...not really thinking straight.
And as you well know dude, you just stepped on a hornets nest :-)
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 08:06 am yeah i had a bit of a rant in the Pro forum this morning sheding my light on this sbject . I have a nice first hand account of what is going on durring the "peace" . I said the same thing you are saying DB about how we should just leave this place and let the people alone with there civil unrest...(here comes the but) but once we do that Sadam will move right back in and gear up and be an even biger pain . We are not the only ones over here either , we have Estonians, Lithuanians, Italians, Spanish , Korean Doc's, and our friends from accross the pond whom i work with day to day . it's one big jount stand still.
Jul 11, 2003 08:08 am Ya, thats true, Geoff, and Sadam would be one very ANGRY and VENGFUL dictator and things would be bad. OK, here's the deal, take out Sadam and his two insane sons, THEN come back home.
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 08:23 am will do ,hahaha. let me just add I wouldn't be too worried about his sons , or at least one of them , that's all i can say , I've said a bit too much already in my other rant .
Jul 11, 2003 08:33 am whaaaaaa? sweet.
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 08:44 am hehehe i knew you would like that one .
Jul 11, 2003 08:45 am we can't just up and leave now, that's just plain irresponsible. if bushy bwoy hadn't officially declared it over, which obviously wasn't, then they wouldn't have died in peace time, they'd have been casualties of war, and then what, does it make it better?.
we walked into a place where no-one was allowed to say jack ****, give them freedom of speach and then complain that they don't really know how to use it properly? well, both the US and the Uk were pretty brutal places while we got used to it.
if we want another lithuania, if we want another bosnia that will come back to haunt us, then we can leave, if we have any sense of responsibility then we can't, and anyhooo, we can't leave till we find his massive stockpile of arms, oh, wait, is that an admission that he didn't have them? i really don't know.
imho, bush'd claim the venus de milo had arms if he could turn a profit.
Jul 11, 2003 08:48 am Ya, I know we can't leave, it would be irresponsible. I am just really angry and spouting off. I feel for the people over there, I really do, I just don't like the ones that are pickin off our men. It makes me angry, but I don't know who at...
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 10:23 am hay pixel , the people who die out here are still casualties of war , they are honored just like any vets . Peace time , is a bit of a strong word to use , we are not at war , so to speak , but this is an " operation" , a more of humanitarian and peace keeping mission yes , but still a dangerous one . I'm sure we won't leave out of this area for a long while . We were in saudi for 11 years with "operation southern watch " ,now we are closing up PSAB ( prince sultan air base) and heading out of there after so long . So it is possible Tallil or Bagdad or Kirkuk could become the next PSAB ( which ended up being a very nice looking base , with BK and baskin Robins , and swimming pools) , but right now we are at a very volital point in this so anything could happen .
Jul 11, 2003 10:39 am i feel for you, i have many friends in the services, it seemed if you didn't drop out completely like i did, the other option was the forces.
i meant nothing by the casualties of war statement, it just gets my goat that the news here reports it as "...since the war has ended..". I'm sure for some it hasn't even started, and if i was there i would put the end of it as me and my buddies being able to leave.
one of my best friends was stationed in Bosnia for quite a spell, and i imagine some of the problems are the same, some llocals think you're the best thing since sliced bread, some want to see you in the ground, and you can't tell which is which till the bullets are let loose.
hearts and minds, sheesh, all the people want is stability, and then the troops there who can provide it until the first government gets going just get shot at for trying.....
i was against this action, but i fully support any troops and civilians trying to make a go of it out there, and i also have no doubt it will be for the good, i just don't think the powers that be really thought it through as much as they said they did.
but all the best to anyone out there, they're better men than i.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 10:44 am what a sticky situation.
it's not about leaving and watching saddam go back in. if we left now, it would almost definitely mean some measure of civil war. you've got all the ethnic groups, and they're all pushing and pulling with each other to try to fill the power vacuum that the people who planned this war would have planned ahead for if they weren't keeping their eye on the oil/hegemony/economy ball.
as for the guerillas who are killing US soldiers, it's a very different deal from their perspective. not everyone there is a religious fanatic, but the stage was set for a rebellion the instant that our born-again president ordered his superpower, growingly FASCIST country into a modern crusade against them a-rab terrorists. guerilla attacks worked well against us in vietnam. the comparisons between this and vietnam are growing day by day.
the only true way to get this going is to get REAL about rebuilding this country. everyone (including iraqis) heard about how the oil ministry was captured while most places were allowed to be looted like mad. so we need to do things to restore iraqi confidence in their invaders, like get electricity and water going, train an iraqi ARMY, get schools going, blah blah blah. big time important step would also be to stop waving the flag in everyone's face and get other countries on board. also, it shows how much post-war planning went into this that we're using zit-faced RESERVES who are rightly scared to death about getting shot in the back of the head while waiting in line for their daily 20 oz water ration. is it any wonder that they'll fire into a demonstrating crowd if they hear a loud noise like a firecracker going off? there are americans who have extensive experience with peacekeeping operations, but where the hell are they? they're stateside, looking for a job.
now that we all cannot deny that our president and his other fellow rich old white men LIED TO START A WAR THAT KILLED TENS OF THOUSANDS, maybe we'll start looking back a couple of years to other suspicious events that killed thousands (ahem, 9/11). there's evidence, motive, etc.
it starts to make sense once you look at bush celebrate july 4 with our troops, know he was AWOL from his cushy, vietnam-dodging assignment, and know that he has sent so many of them to their deaths and to kill anonymous darkies for the benefit of corporations and terrorist states (like us now). think about how much real anti-american terrorism would rise if we just yanked out and let theocracies arise from the civil wars that would inevitably ensue. there was a reason why i was so vocal about this topic here and many other forums. we have stirred the hornet's nest. god help us all.
--edit--
also, it's not about whether they are grateful for their "liberation" or not. i was reading an article about a guy who was shouting at US prison camp guards that if his people want "that monster" (saddam) back in order to have some measure of stability, then how bad can the americans be? one of the large herd-mentality characteristics of the war-primed US population was that we pretty much considered iraqis to be stupid and programmed. how ironic.
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 11:07 am interesting point , I agree witha bit ,although some seems a bit extream and miss informed but that's ok , veryone has the opinion and that's what makes this place so cool . Minkus , you do have a striking good point on why we should stay , i'm with you there , but on a few thing like the pimply face reserve bit , well...most of the reserves that are sent out right now are far from the 18 year old deer in the head lights kids , but more so the older generation ready to retire . I'm not sure which is better at times , but activating out reservers ( and not a lot have been sent out ) is the only way we could have done this , plus most of them are left at home to man our bases because all of us active duties folks have been tasked , and the only reason we had to activate said reserves is becaus ethe last administration cut 2/3 of our military . One last thing conserning all military , we all volenteered , no one made anyone sign the dotted line ,reserve , gard, or active , we took the same oath . That the one thing with the news and everyone they blow up some things to mass proportions and don't mention others , I feel bad that a lot of people get completly miss informed . I wish that everyone can see the whole pic , I'm not saying i see everything , but i can say i see a reason to be here , and also a reason to leave , exccept one reason is a little more strong than the other .
Jul 11, 2003 11:12 am I might be wrong here, but I think Minkus IS an idealistic pimply faced kid.
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 11:14 am hay pix , not trying to come off mad , just lettin yo know that people are not being forgotten and such . and man i just go to work , this is my job , just like people work at the Airport , eccept my hours are a little different and i get a few changes in location every once in a while .
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 11:16 am I was about 7-8 years ago but then my complection cleared up .
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 11:37 am hey i'm 22. still get the occasional blemish, but acne time is a bygone era for me. i know that the army is a diverse group of people. i was just using the pimple-faced thing for effect.
my main point is, this war was a bad idea from the getgo, being based on lies and poor logic. "faith-based", you might say.
yes i'm somewhat idealistic, but i prefer the ideals of democracy and diplomacy to those of neocolonialism, fascism, and crony capitalism. we all suffer under the latter.
i'd also like to know more about how i'm misinformed. it's clear that there are areas in iraq where things are far better. i'm talking places like baghdad, fallujah, tikrit, and basra.
Jul 11, 2003 11:54 am This is what I never understand about statements like that, I don't see myself suffering under any of the above. My comment was not meant as a personal jab, more for effect as well. To many being 22 is still a "pimply-faced kid".
When I was early-to-mid 20's I held most all of the same beliefs that you seem to believe, which even though I now disagree, I do respect it.
However I later figured rather try to change the rules of the game, I would learn to play it...and life has gotten nothing but better.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 12:06 pm "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
we're spending $4 billion per month on the war and on contracts with halliburton while for example there are many schools having to raise money for textbooks and other scholastic necessities using bake sales. the way that all this affects your life is mostly indirect, but it's clearly there if you look for it.
yes, 22 still is kid-aged, but it doesn't automatically disqualify what i'm saying. messenger vs message. i understand that you weren't trying to insult.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 12:09 pm more on crony capitalism:
www.telegraph.co.uk/money.../10/ixcity.html
looks like cheney can't hide the fact that he made energy policy with enron folks (big campaign contributors in their heyday). i live in the state of CA, which was duped out of BILLIONS by these gents.
Jul 11, 2003 12:10 pm Sure it affects my life, but am I suffering? no.
There is still alot I feel is wrong, but is it making my quality of life worse. no.
And California has a lot of problems besides that. The stupid Davis guy should be ousted and hanged in the town square too...frickin criminal.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 12:14 pm it is absolutely, 100% your prerogative to choose how many people you care about.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 12:14 pm ha ha i think i'm more scared of the prospect of having the terminator in office and spending $100 million on a special election to get rid of a guy whose time is almost up.
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 12:57 pm I agree about davis man , I'm from CA also . There is a lot of messed up stuff is this entire world . We have a lot of our own problems , like as you said the hungry , and the homless . Our home is not by far perfict , but i wouldn't switch with any one else , we still have more freedom than most places , there may be a bit of hard ships and corruption ( belive me compaired to a lot of countrys ours is squeeky clean) , and some things that don't sit right well ...such is life, $@# happens , all these little sayings, life is not fair , and i don't think it was intended to be that way , because if it was we would all be happy and have nothing to complain about and it would be rather dull :P
Did you know the war campain also pays for , food and shelter , for people that are not even citizens of the us , it pays for new homes for these people ( homes , most of which we never destroyed) , the humanitarian aspect of this is what takes the big amount of $$$ , right or wrong I have no coment . Bagdad and Basura , big in the news i belive right now , bagdad has always been , did you know whe have a birger king in Bagadad right now and there is a USO show going too . I spent last weekend in Basra , and it is smaller than this place but about the same , not a friendly envornment . The bad thing is I forsee tommy franks keeping us here for atleast 4 more years . Well I look at the bright side I'll have a job for that long hahahaha .
one last thing I don't think DB was making a huge age jab , 22 was 3 years ago for me , so i'm still young .
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 01:11 pm i agree with you on most counts, geoff. the corruption in our government has always been pretty incredible, but we've usually been insulated from very extreme results, and the media also paints a rosy picture. there's this general american complacency towards understanding politics and our political system. i was always mystified at how so many people were mad as hell at anti-war protesters when the protesters were actually out there being involved...being part of our system. i've always liked this quote:
"There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots - suspicion."
Demosthenes
i thought it was odd that i had to keep my mouth shut when expressing my suspicion of POLITICIANS to various types of people. "we've gotta trust the commander in chief!" i hope we learn a few lessons from this, but i honestly don't think we will.
Jul 11, 2003 01:23 pm The only time I get mad at protestors is when they interfere with the daily lives of people that ARE NOT protesting. I never protested this war, but my bus to and from work was continually delayed, as well as the other 80 people on the bus...
Protest? By all means, speak your mind...but speak it to people that can do something, yell at your congressman, talk to people as they are walking by, if protestors piss people off like that they are not gonna get anything but anger pointed at them, they surely are not going to get anyone on their side with that kind of tactic.
And then of course there are the dirty, job-less "activists" that are in every single protest that ever happens...which makes their input worth far less since it appears they just like protesting...regardless of the cause.
Jul 11, 2003 01:24 pm paraphrasing:
if man has peace in his heart, there will be peace in his home, if his home has peace there will be peace with his neighbours, if there is peace in the street there will be peace in the town...
you get the idea.
i'm kina with minkus and db and geoff, but i look at it like this: there are great injustices and evil in this world, but i am not going to be able to solve them all. rather i concenrate on those that i can. i man absolutely no disrespect to you minkus, i am only 7 years older, but until i realised this and stopped railing against the regime and its far reaching tentacles, such as yu have mentioned, i didn't have the time or energy to devote to the stuff around me that needed doing.
i worked with kids making music (planning now)from the council estates (state housing and tenements, kinda), cos thats where i lived, i helped community clean ups etc. i don't want a pat on the back or to big myself up, but those little acts helped and did more real good than say, throwing a brick through a McD's window as a stance against their global policy (which then a min. wage guy has to clean up while the trustfund rastas - trustafarians - pat themselves on the back somewhere else.
sorry, ranted, not directad at anyone.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 01:25 pm ...plus theres the idea that more soldiers would have died if they stayed home due to car accidents and training accidents. When I demobed after my stint at Fort Campbell they had lost 3 in the war... 1 was combat the others were training accidents (not counting the crazy guy)
but 4 had died in drunk driving accidents... and being an airassault division they have the nasty habbit of repelling out of helicopters 100 ft in the air, down ropes 50 ft long *splat*
We "knew" sadam was "wrong" and we had the choice of trying to ignore the situation or trying to fix the situation.
George Washington once stated to the effect of that if the US lasted 20 years after the revolution then it could be a major power...however he was apprehensive that it would last that first 20 years. Don't forget that there was, in 1794, a revolt in the US www.publicbookshelf.com/p...iskeyre_if.html
Jul 11, 2003 01:27 pm pixie, that was the greatest! you put that very well.
Quote:
there are great injustices and evil in this world, but i am not going to be able to solve them all. rather i concenrate on those that i can. i man absolutely no disrespect to you minkus, i am only 7 years older, but until i realised this and stopped railing against the regime and its far reaching tentacles, such as yu have mentioned, i didn't have the time or energy to devote to the stuff around me that needed doing.
Exactly what I have said here many times..."pick your battles", very well stated. I agree 150%
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 01:35 pm i don't understand why being disenfranchised is being equated with being wise. deciding that you can't do anything about it is a cop out.
about the protesters causing daily life to stop to a certain extent, that's what happens when our government does something that pisses off hundreds of thousands of people to the point where they want to get together and demonstrate. it totally doesn't matter if the uninvolved get inconvenienced. having stereotypes about who is protesting isn't all that productive either. i knew unwashed college students, middle class moms, rich jewish uncles who all went way out of their way to be there to support this. the best effect that all this had was letting the entire planet know that all of america isn't asleep.
about the drunk driving deaths...come on...it's a very different thing to die at the hands of an angry iraqi rebel in a pointless war than by your own hands because of your own stupidity.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 01:42 pm ... and we know they had WMD because we gave them to them as part of the dual use progam during the Iranian war....
the other problem is that most of these chemical have industrial uses...
AC (Hydrogen Cynaide) is really quick to make, short persistancy (makes it harder to detect) and is very fast acting with incapacitation in 1-2 minutes and death in 15minuts... it takes atleast 10 minuts to do a proper M256 kit
Thiodiglycol used in ball point pen ink can be converted into a mustard agent with one chlorination step... oddly Iraq had an awful lot of thiodiglycol and chlorine
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 01:44 pm also, the point is that saddam wasn't "wrong" in the way that our president and his buddies were stating it (aka they LIED). pre-emptive war is against international law for a reason. it's not as black and white as ignoring it or doing something about it either. remember the inspectors that were in there doing something about it? remember how they were pulled out because bush said that they knew where the weapons were, and that inspections were taking too long, and because of the imminent danger posed by saddam?
Jul 11, 2003 01:47 pm Who ever decided they couldn't do anything about any of it, that is an assumption on your part. Protesting and lobbying has many times proven itself a way to accomplish something. Nor do I consider it "wise". What I did was a simple analysis of where my time and energy is best spent. Where I feel I can have the most impact is locally, in my neighborhood, in my community and in the schools that my children do or will attend.
If everyone felt that way pixie's analogy would stand true about hapiness and contentment rolling uphill.
I still do get involved in causes that I feel I can help and/or feel passionate about (yes, there still is a little passion in my veins). The war was not one of the battles I picked.
As far as protestors go, no stereotypes are not productive, but during this round of war protests I was up-close and personal with them, having to work right in the middle of it, and I recognized a lot of the people from the protest last year about the genetics conference held here, and the year after that about the trees getting cut down for the light-rail...is that everyone, no, it's not, but it is some, and those were the only ones I was talking about.
We have been round and round about this before Minkus and I am quite sick of having to explain the same damn thing every time a subject like this comes up, as I am guessing you are. People wanna protest and lobby, thats fine, knock yourselves but, but don't get in my way while your doing it, cuz I don't agree (or not to the extent that I care to get involved) and I don't wanna listen to it...I have better ways to spend my time.
I'm tired, this is old, and the whole things bores me...I enjoyed it the first few times...now it's just the same old crap regurgitated again...I bet we could find several of the same thread. Nobody's mind has changed.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 01:48 pm ... though there is a joke among the chemical guys that Iraq really didn't have any chemical weapon because they used them all on us during the first gulf war. every one that I know who operated the chemical alarms during that first operation said their alarms were going off but the policy was to recalibrate the machine :)
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 01:57 pm ha ha i'm just getting all excited because all of the folks in the various spots in my life who got on my case for being 'jaded' and 'anti-establishment' are now eating it. just riding the wave of "i told you so."
i'm mostly concerned with seeing this entire charade through though, and watching all the liars get put in jail for the rest of their lives. we've got better things to do.
Jul 11, 2003 01:58 pm I don't know how you are in any position to say "I told you so" based on anything we have discussed here, but OK, ride away, enjoy...
GeoffSM7b the Chuck Noris of Mic'sContributor
Since: Jun 20, 2002
Jul 11, 2003 02:04 pm sam i knew you would show up some day hahahaha . Pix you hit the nail right on the head . As I said in the past I may be in the military , but i'm anti war ( to the very meaning of it all ) but I belive in doing what i think is right and that was joining the AF over 5 years ago . Belive it or not I'm am also think people can protest , protest your little hearts out , that the freedom you have , by all mean use it . As on of my wise old friends said "people for the majority are smart and rational, but get them into a group it becomes a mob and the inteligence that once was there has dwindled down to about nothing ..and that can be dangerous."
I also think is sucks that 90% of protesting doesn't accomplish anything but negitave results ,( sometimes acts of violence , media changing the story ect) .
that's the great thing about our US , even now look a few people swaping there ideas , with out the worry of being persicuted for what "they" belive in or don't belive in . The whole world is screwed up , and has been that way from beginning , sometimes you just have to relax and relize you can't change everything , but you can make a difference , it's finding out what that difference is , that's the fun part .
so ...anyone want a nice cold one ?
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 02:15 pm dB...wasn't talking about you. work, family, friends, etc.
Jul 11, 2003 04:02 pm WOMD, what a mess, now we can't find any. And I have to trust the media, that Saddam used them on their own people. Could be, I don't know. What if he didn't? The media nowadays has a hair-trigger for headlines. First Jessica Lynch emptied her weapons and was a hero in a firefight. Now they say their lead was tired, took a wrong turn and couldn't get their weapons to work. What do you believe?
This is the same crap we got fed during the Vietnam war.
Please don't get me wrong, I support our troops unconditionally, they signed on to do a job and are doing it, I wish them safety.
Leaders are always going to be questioned. From the Pres. to the Gov. right down to your daycare manager. But nowadays I feel the media has lost it. If it bleeds it leads.
They wanted to hang Reagen when he was gov. too. I remember I was young but with the media I wanted to hang him too. Because I was too young I didn't step back and look at all of the evidence.
I don't support Davis in CA. but what were our alternatives? Most people can't remember who they were.
Let's go back to anybody know a good joke, our blood pressures were a lot lower there.
Jul 11, 2003 04:20 pm And another thing,
(I knew I shouldn't have looked at this thread)
The media and Jessica Lynch, she wasn't the only person in that convoy. Diffently she was the most camera friendly, for me anyway. But the media in it's hurry, selects her as the poster girl. Time magazine even, just to beat the other publications to the punch. I hope she was brave in the situation, now she's off the RADAR totaly. Which confirms to me that the media wasn't even close and that the military freaked out because they had a few bads days so they needed to generate a hero for the public.
And they probably freaked because the media was feeding them the crap that Joe Public was unhappy with the way things were going.
Nobody asked me, I don't remember anyone I hang with saying we need to pull out because we had a bad day or too.
I'm stopping now and I'm not mad just disappointed with the media only.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 04:42 pm Don't want to offend anyone but just want to say something that's on my mind. Everybody has good points here and to me, everyone here are good people. I just find it difficult to categorize idealism in topics like these. On the one hand, you have the guys who want to change the world, and beleive that something can be done to make the world a better place by aiming their actions at the ruling bodies (e.g. protesting). On the other hand, you have the people that concentrate on their own lives and their 'radius' of effect by doing good in this 'zone'. However, some of these people choose to close their eyes on the rest of the world in way and beleive if everybody does this than it'll be better. This may be too strongly put, but I can't think to rephrase it right now...Well, that's just as idealistic to me. I've thought both ways and I admit I am somewhat of an idealist myself. Really guys, there's no right or wrong answer IMO, just different ways of approaching a problem. We just have to respect the rest of the people approaching the 'problems' differently. Otherwise, nothing is being solved at all. Peace. I hope the situation brightens up in Iraq and everywhere else that is not mentioned in the news...
Jul 11, 2003 05:20 pm Glynb started it......
(I learned that from my kids)
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 11, 2003 07:40 pm good points, Mat.
grumpeedad...it was pretty interesting how after the jessica lynch story started to develop cracks, her doctors and the military were saying that she has amnesia and would probably never be able to remember what exactly happened to her. it's like a movie :-)
Jul 11, 2003 09:00 pm Yeah, I do feel bad for the entire band that made the wrong turn. I think I read that it was a logistics group and I think 1 was a cook. So that tells me they were probably nothing more that cooks and mess hall types. Maybe it was a blessing that they didn't put up much of a fight. It probably kept them alive.
I hope they all recover, I don't think that they signed up to fight.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 12, 2003 02:37 pm Army - 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company. they fixed things. here's an interesting image for everyone to look at:
Jul 12, 2003 03:07 pm Good image, maybe it's time for fuel cells. Then we can worry about 3rd world countries smogging up the world. Aye, yi, yi...
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jul 14, 2003 10:11 am I think lynch was the cook.
The media knows people want life to be like a movie...they just forget to proof read the script :)
speaking of scripts... I'm working on one based on my deployment experiences... it's a comedy... and a drama dealing with the emotional build up and preparation only to have the mission cancelled allowing everyone to sink into alcoholism :) YaY! Should be done enough to start shopping around during winter...
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Jul 15, 2003 06:44 am Well I certainly churned up a lot of feelings with this one, only to be expected, there can be no more serious topic than life and death.
It is VERY serious. its one thing for Governments to put a spin on Health service figures, or job statistics or tax rates etc, but to spin on infromation which leads the Country into war must be THE most serious deception a Government can carry out, if that is what has happened.
For what its worth I think Tony Blair wouldn't deliberately mislead us, but the information he was being fed was probably exagerated. Now it could be exagerated deliberately by someone, or just exagerated due to 'Chinese whispers', either way the case seems to have been exagerated.
Sadam being a nasty man, is not enough of a justification of itself, unless you are going to be consistent and start picking off the world's dictators (must be 50 or so at least) one by one. Lets start with Liberia for example? Now some people WOULD support that, but a lot of soldiers would have to die in the process.
Sadly, I think its only a matter of time before Iraq gets another 'strong man' in the driving seat, but hopefully the West will stay on friendly terms with him next time, like they do with Saudi Arabia.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 15, 2003 12:24 pm you might want to think twice about blair. he is definitely a brilliant politician, and he rarely lets words slip by without knowing exactly what they mean and how they would most likely pan out, politically. his actions have definitely shown that he knows exactly what he's doing. why he is doing it is the question. you might say that he thinks it's in the best interests of the UK to align themselves closely with the sole emerging superpower of the era, especially when said superpower is actively asserting dominance in as many areas as it can. some people say that his undying dedication might signal that he's being blackmailed over something as well. time will tell, but tony blair is definitely misguided and does not represent the will of the majority of the british public (as evidenced by polls and especially by turnout at the pre-war protests).
it's tough to tell what will happen in iraq. we have no clue whether public outcry will force withdrawal, or whether we're going to attempt to "finish the job" until all the oil is gone. but if someone terrible gets put into power, it won't be the first time america/britain/other euro powers have done so. that is why it's such a massive joke to pretend that we're going to iraq to remove evil and spread good democracy. the bottom line is that nation-states blindly go after their own interests. if the top people behind the born-again president convince him that god is calling him to do what sane people consider to be an extraordinarily evil thing (start a war with lies, etc), he'll do it. if they convinced him that the country's best interests are in spending the money to fix our problems at home so that we can get real and help out the rest of the planet as well, then we would have an actually feasible approach to the "war on terrorism" (in quotes because it's a joke as well). this is why we need politicians who have some real education and some real sense of the world to lead a country instead of someone who claims that god told him to strike at al-qaeda and saddam.
we're buds with the saudis (who are evil monarchists) because they have oil. oil goes, saudi riches go, they become just another 3rd world country governed by people that our politicians can present as monsters to our people so that we will support more wars that cost MONEY which, when going to the friends of the politicians who made the war and even the politicians themselves, represents a profound conflict of interest. welcome to the america, land of the military-industrial complex.
it's an extraordinarily complex "game", and hopefully all of us will finally get it stuck in our brains that our government is our SERVANT, and that letting it lie to us and become our master is our own damn fault. but, we probably wont, since this type of situation happened on a large scale as recently as vietnam.
Jul 15, 2003 10:49 pm Oil, oil, oil,
If you need a combustion engine you're an oil junkie. We all know the junkie symptoms, you lie, cheat, steal, deny or whatever to get what you need. And who are the dealers?
Sadly, I'd be the first guy to have a fully-blown 69' Camaro that got about 4 mpg.
Jul 15, 2003 10:56 pm By the way Glynb,
Blair has come across to me as a articulate public figure. To me anyway. But like I said earlier, I only see what the media gives me and I'm usually too lazy to dig below that. I hope he takes care of you folks accross the pond.
PS. I saw a picture of him in his college days, long hair and all. He coulda' been Peter Frampton!
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Jul 16, 2003 09:44 am "PS. I saw a picture of him in his college days, long hair and all. He coulda' been Peter Frampton!"
And he used to play and sing in a rock band. Even Clinton only played Sax. (I said SAX!)
As for the 'he's being blackmailed' thing, I could buy that if it wasn't for the fact that the German and French leaders weren't also blackmailed into following (and I suspect there's a lot more dirt to dish on those two!).
Blair's a decent enough man, but there must be pressures on him that we don't know about and won't do until it doesn't matter anymore (like 10/20 years from now).
Yep, you'd think they'd have learned from the Watergate thing with old Tricky Dicky, but history seems to keep repeating itself with each generation having to relearn the lessons.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 16, 2003 02:48 pm glynb -
the whole blackmail thing is just conjecture based upon reactive analysis of blair's actions. schroeder and chirac have a lot of skeletons in their closets, but those respective skeletons are not necessarily tied to those of blair's that are at work here. the difference between them is that blair chose to ignore public opinion. schroeder actually campaigned on an anti-war platform, because it was so clear that the majority of the german public could see ulterior motives just like the rest of the planet minus crazy people, some british, and most americans.
when talking about history years from now, you can be sure that blair will be remembered as bush's poodle, which is already a popular concept of him. i wouldn't call a man who lied to start a war decent at all. i'd call him a criminal.
we'll never learn anything as long as we're run by these sick consumerist ideals that place the virginity of britney spears at a higher importance than the war against the third world.
on a lighter note, if any of us run for office, there will always be pictures and home recordings for people to laugh at :-)
Jul 21, 2003 09:10 pm Hmmmm... wow. I guess I don't really have anything to add, except that I think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions on both sides of the fence. The more I think about it, the more I realize that we don't really have much to base our arguments on because none of us really know what's going on and who's telling the truth. Who should we be trusting? It's very frustrating and I don't believe it's right. It appears at the moment that there is something fishy going on, but let's not get too cynical here. Let's just watch and see what happens now. Let's not start spewing forth the same old far left/right wing garbage. Let's try to be completely honestly objective. Okay, I'm done.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Jul 22, 2003 05:37 am "glynb -
when talking about history years from now, you can be sure that blair will be remembered as bush's poodle, which is already a popular concept of him. i wouldn't call a man who lied to start a war decent at all. i'd call him a criminal."
- Well he may be remebered for a lot of things, but so far the jury is out on whether he lied to start a war, case not proven. I prefer to believe that he genuinely beleived the things he said about the threat and if there was any misleading going on then HE was himself being misled...but by whom is the issue? Sonme people always seem to have the opinion that anyone in a position of authority must be corrupt and untrustworthy. This is not the case. I have met many Labour MPs who are good decent people who genuinely want to make things better, there must be SOME U.S. politicians who are decent too. We shouldn't always assume the worst, but wait for evidence (and i don't mean made up newspaper stories from journalists with their own political agenda with unreliable sources!)
"we'll never learn anything as long as we're run by these sick consumerist ideals that place the virginity of britney spears at a higher importance than the war against the third world."
- I think that's more a comment about the media than politicians.
"on a lighter note, if any of us run for office, there will always be pictures and home recordings for people to laugh at :-)"
- You're right there. In fact mine are so embarassing I can't even run for office at all!
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 22, 2003 01:38 pm i'm not the type to prefer to believe anyone in power, but i'm not the type to automatically assume wrongdoing. but you know that politicians are people who deserve to be scrutinized very closely, since power attracts the type of people who shouldn't have it in the first place. and that's not an opinion :-)
i put this quote up before:
"There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots - suspicion."
Demosthenes
it's true. evidence contrary to central iraq war claims has been coming out since the claims were made. the whole point of propaganda is to give people enough select bits of info on the situation to give them a particular conclusion and make it so that they don't have to think hard. we all have busy lives. it's interesting how people like scott ritter who were actually there working with iraq's WMDs were condemned as "traitors". if you define a traitor as someone trying to prevent marching off to the GLORY of war for very questionable reasons, count me in too.
my comment about britney was about the media, i suppose, but the extent that the media is tied to politics is evident in such things as the recent FCC ruling (a gift to the media conglomerates for cheerleading the rush to war). when it comes to reporters writing stories trying to avoid questioning our commander-in-chief, i think that is mostly subconscious self-censorship. but whether or not these reporters or bush or blair believe what they are spewing forth, it doesn't make it true, and it doesn't give back the tens of thousands of lives stolen as a result.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Jul 23, 2003 11:04 am "There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots - suspicion."
Demosthenes
Suspicion is healthy, but too much suspicion and not enough trust leads to cynicism and that is unhealthy IMO. The numbers of people voting is declining partly because people are very cynical about politicians and the political process.
Just imagine for a minute that a good honest man DID get the top job - would the media just report what he did straight or would they put an cynical angle on every story they printed about him? Sadly, the latter IMO.
The media seem to hold the view that everyone with any power must be untrustworthy and shifty and set out trying to prove this.
Just imagine for minute that the Gvt did NOT 'sex up' the intelligence material about WMD, but it made a good story to say they did - how angry would you be in Blair's position if that was the case? Being accused of doing something which you would never do which caused people to lose their lives - (and we're talking of a guy who is a professed Christian here).
Look I'm not naive, I know politicians have to make uncomfortable compromises all the time, but with regard to the British situation i think some sections ogf the media have their own agenda to get Blair (more likely Campbell and ex-journo, so they are jealous maybe) and you have to bear that in mind in all you hear and read.
Jul 23, 2003 11:19 am I agree, suspicion is good, but it's a tightrope. Some folks take it to extreme and find fault or conspiracy in everything, which is thankfully not the case. Not every little thing that happens has some bigger story behind it that somebody is covering up.
Alternatively there are those that blindly believe and follow everything they are fed...which is as unhealthy.
Personally, I am sort of in the middle...and then look at the subject, if it doesn't really affect my life, then why spend the time worrying about it.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 23, 2003 01:45 pm it seriously was clear way before bombs started dropping over baghdad that bush and blair had both been modifying intelligence to suit their purposes, as well as changing the justification for war as they went along. it was very very underreported. the BBC itself was very pliant in this regard. the reason the news organizations out there have an agenda is because there is a war criminal in office.
dB...we're all in various positions on that tightrope, but it's difficult to tell why we are there. if we're only worried about what affects our own interests (where most people are), then what you care about is affected by who is telling you what affects you. i'm sure it's tough to tell how NAFTA and GATT affect you, but they do.
here's a good video on a pretty delicate topic. it's interesting to watch the senators (including kerry, who is running for prez right now) talk about how our government is running drugs. pretty bizarre!
gnn.tv/crack/
suspicion is more than necessary in 2003's america. enjoy :-)
Jul 23, 2003 03:34 pm "it seriously was clear way before bombs started dropping over baghdad that bush and blair had both been modifying intelligence to suit their purposes"
What I can't figure out is, if Bush and Blair were trying to modify intelligence to suit their own purposes, what are their own purposes?
Just something to discuss, I guess. I don't go for the whole oil thing, and I'm still not convinced that they were modifying intellegence or that Iraq doesn't/didn't have "WOMD." We shall see.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 23, 2003 04:59 pm i personally think that blair considers it to be in britain's best interest to cozy up to the US in the New American Century, but some think that he's being blackmailed because of a pedophilia scandal, along with other things.
the oil thing is totally true. look at the energy task force records that cheney was finally forced to release a few days ago in a suit filed by judicial watch. he had gotten together with the heads of big energy companies like ken lay from enron, and one of the incredibly fishy documents is a map of iraq's oilfields and a list of potential investors. this is the kind of thing that abraham lincoln warned about when he spoke of an era where corporations were enthroned. not to mention the whole thing about the oil ministry being secure while the other ministries got looted, and how the oil wells are pumping (despite sabotage by the locals) while electricity and water are still at a standstill.
bush is definitely motivated by his born-again christian beliefs, and he seems to believe that he is serving a critical part in bringing earth towards armageddon (jesus' return). strange to think that most people here believe that our true enemy is islamic fundamentalism, when our christian fundamentalist leader has already displayed complete disregard for human rights, international law, public opinion, etc while ramping up military spending and pushing towards new nuke research (smaller ones that we can use more often).
a lot of people behind bush (policy makers) are a big factor in this too, and this has to be one of the more heated facets of this gem. they're working for the interests of israel. saying that prompts a lot of people to scream "anti-semite", but there's a different between hating people and seeing that a regional power (the only one with nukes in the neighborhood) is doing extremely questionable things.
so in short, the war in iraq:
A) OIL (strategic energy resources)
B) platform for american military power
C) securing israel's interests
D) people like bush and other "conservatives" believe that introducing (read: forcing) democracy to the region will improve stability
as for D, now we have a bona fide guerilla war in iraq. good job, boys!
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Jul 24, 2003 08:30 am "i personally think that blair considers it to be in britain's best interest to cozy up to the US in the New American Century,"
Yep, I think that's generaly agreed to be the REAL reason he was determined to support the U.S. But it's hard to sell a war on the basis of "We better support the yanks, because it might be advantageous for us to be seen as their true buddies. And they might stop doing x, y, z, for us if we let them down".
The Americans have a history of doing us British a favour and joining in with our wars (thankfully) maybe we owed them one in return!
" but some think that he's being blackmailed because of a pedophilia scandal, along with other things."
This is totaly bizarre, where did THAT come from? I think we're back to those stupid conspiracy theorists again like soeone else mentioned in a post. You know these people are the same type of people who still believe that Elvis is alive and serving Fish and Chips in Manchester and that man never landed on the moon it was all a Hollywood style put up - sad people.
If he was being blackmailed for THAT reason he'd just resign and spend more time with his young family. I've never heard anything more outrageous/silly.
More likely, the blackmail option would go something like 'If you cdon't support the U.S. we will stop sharing intelligence info with you british or won't let you have any oil contracts, etc' - now that's more believable.
Jul 24, 2003 10:19 am Hey, all ya'll wanna try to run a country?
Go to the Jennifer Government site www.nationstates.net/ and sign up to start a nation. When done, if you wanna hang out together, join the region called "The Hive".
It's a fun little game where you start a nation, deall with some problems of running one and the program starts calculating how you are doing and the type of government you are developing into.
It's really kinda fun, I have been at it for quite a few weeks...months actually...Pixel Pixie has a country to, but he bailed out of the Hive and moved to some other region, what a slacker. :-P
The Hive is getting down to 3 people, come join and have some fun being a ruler.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jul 24, 2003 12:46 pm glynb - i mentioned the pedophilia scandal because some people believe it (i don't), and you were asking for reasons why. i never did any real research into it, and i'm sure that if the accusation merits any real conclusions, they will show up. but it's interesting to see that it hit a conspiracy theory rejectionist trigger with you. weirder things have happened.
