Vocals and Hi-Class Gear
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Posted on Jun 11, 2003 05:33 pm
Alanfc
Member Since: Mar 13, 2003
Hello everyone,
I have a big multi-part question:
I was thinking of shopping for closest thing I can get to some of that super expensive hi-class "pro gear" everyone talks about... Like the stuff people tell me really separates the pros from the homerecc'ers. I know I'm just doing this for fun but I want it to sound good.
To my ears, what really separates my stuff from the commercial CD's is the vocal sounds. They seem clear but just far enough away not to sound like home recordings. Everything seems lively, but distant in a pleasing way. Rock, country, metal, every genre. Do you all hear that difference too? For some reason I think this artful use of hi-priced pro compression.
1)I am under the impression that the Compressor would be the first thing to get. Can anyone give me an opinion on that?
(I have Cakewalk HS XL and it has a compressor but I know there's alot better out there)
2) an outboard rackmount piece would make me feel really cool but could I get a software plug-in that would serve me just as well? I have been reading about outboard devices and connections with PC recording and it seems too complicated for me (embarrassed)
3) If I choose to use an outboard piece, is it hazardous to buy used? We have this great store down here that's a virtual graveyard of broken dreams, with numerous aisles of used stuff you wouldn't believe! Its just a few blocks south of Sunset Blvd near all the famous rock clubs. What a place. I would love to find a real gem there.
I know the difference between me and bands on the radio would be more than just a piece of equipment, (monitoring, room, a real engineer (!) but I am very curious about that first thing.
Could you all let me know if anything comes to mind?? I may be totally missing the point.
thanks alot
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Jun 11, 2003 05:55 pm To get a really pro vocal sound, you need a couple of things. Firstly, you've got to have a good mic. And second, a good preamp.
If you look at the gear lists of a few big-dollar studios, you'll find that all of them have a wide assortment of high-end mics like Neuman U87, Neuman U47, Elam 250, the list goes on and on and the prices range from $1500 to $20,000. Of course, us home recording guys can't usually pull out $20k for a mic, but there are quite a few good mics that fit into a home recording artists budget more easily. Personally, I have a Groove Tubes GT66. It's a tube powered, large diaphragm condensor that sounds great and can be aquired for about $500. There are several others in this price range. You just have to research bit and find one that works for you (sounds good for your voice).
As for preamps, the big boys very often have preamps made by Avalon, Focusrite, Grace, and a small host of others. A good mic preamp will usually give you everything you need to send a good signal to tape or HD. Often, they'll have a compressor, EQ, phase invert, and other nice features built right in. Avalon is definitely a favorite and you'll find an Avalon 737SP or 2 on the gear list of many pro studios. This one is in the "more affordable" range with a street price of around $1500 - $1800. Focusrite also makes a line of preamps that are pretty easy on the wallet. I have a Focusrite Voicemaster Platinum. It sounds great and was definitely the missing link in my signal chain. You can pick up one of those for around $450 or so.
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 11, 2003 06:28 pm
Thank you -
OK I really need to ask about pre-amps and set this totally straight for myself.
So a vocal pre-amp is for more than just volume boost? I have an Edirol UA-5 external soundcard thing with phantom power for my condenser mic, and I was told by someone that this box serves the same purpose as a pre-amp.
But it looks like the real pre-amps you mention can do more. Are the built -in features simply a convenience ??
Or are they superior to the combo of: volume boost with my Edirol, plus compress/EQ/ etc. in my computer recording software?
In other words, the processing going on before the signal gets to PC will be better/cleaner?.
thanks for your patience
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
Jun 11, 2003 07:05 pm hey where is the store full of used stuff that you were talking about? i'm around LA, and i'd like to check it out.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Jun 11, 2003 10:33 pm Your right, the Edirol can act as a pre-amp - however, it will not be a very high quality one. Low quality pre-amps can rob the signal of high freqency information and make things sound flat and / or dead.
A higherquality (more expensive) pre-amp will do a far better and tidier job of amplifying the signal without robbing it of vital characteristics.
I use a Joe Meek M3Q channel which has comression, EQ and dual outputs as well.
Oh, and as for mics - have a listen to my new acoustic track posted on the forums - that was recorded using a Rode NT-1 (far from expensive) - how do you rate that, or do you still desire a more professional sound (and yes, I know mine is a long was from pro, but it's pretty tight IMHO :)
jues.
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 11, 2003 11:24 pm Thanks Blue and Jues-
I am straight now. Am thrilled to start shopping for preamps!
Jues- I can't find your tune ?!! Which category?
MinkusMaz!! the store is called Black Market Music and its on La Cienega. North of The Beverly Center and South of Sunset. On the west side of the street. Just look for all the old road cases out on the sidewalk and that'll be the place.
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 12, 2003 02:06 am
Aha ! I see it.
I'll have to listen to it at work in the morning- my connection here is stupid slow. Your description of the techniques were really valuable though-
really gotta hear that song now
thanks
SonicoMember
Since: Apr 19, 2002
Jun 12, 2003 10:40 am I agree with the preamp advice. I've just updated my Behringer's pres with an ART TPS (just $179) pre and the diference is huge.
But as the gear in my studio becomes better with the days, I realize that the room's acoustics become a very important issue.
Also don't forget that the hours of reading, recording, mixing and experimenting are a big big treasure here.
A novice with the best gear will make amateur recordings and an experimented enginer with prosumer gear will make a pro recording.
Just my opinion!!
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 12, 2003 11:15 am
thanks Sonico-
My post really looked like I was seeking a quick fix didn't it?
I am a reader & researcher by nature so I know its going to help me in all this.
There's so many elements to consider - I was just trying to get to that first elusive step. Once someone said "pre-amp" , the lights went on and now I'm off to the races.
Jues-
I'm at work now and I heard that tune. How incredible that vocal sound is! Thats what I was talking about in my initial post- that clear smooth vocal that has distance but still has detail. I still don't know how to describe it, but your tune had it. Thanks for sharing the technique
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Jun 12, 2003 12:32 pm No worries - and bear in mind that's from an NT-1 and a Joe Meek M3Q - together they both come to less than £250.
a long way from pro :D
jues.
Jun 12, 2003 04:00 pm Alanfc, glad these guys could get you headed in the right direction. I been there, and the HRC crew always pulls thru.
one thing, you keep mentioning "distance", and I can't help but think maybe one of the aspects you're hearing in the recordings you're shooting for is reverb. A touch of reverb can be the difference between dry and harsh or smooth and distant. Strange words to describe sound, i know, but I think we're on the same page?
i think everyone will agree that a quality condensor + a quality pre + compression + reverb = the solution to 90% of the quality vocal tracks you hear the pros do.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Jun 12, 2003 04:01 pm i dig what youre saying dude...
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 12, 2003 04:38 pm
Aha !! Jamie !!
That is true! OK I've been misusing reverb in the past but now that you say that in this context WOW ! I can't wait to try that. I had been going really light on reverb and sort of avoiding it. It made things too muddy and - well, distant !! -- There it is. I gotta really figure out how to use it well.
Thanks alot
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Jun 12, 2003 07:24 pm Chamber reverb is the answer to that one my friend. Also, roll off the high frequencies on the reverb return and you suddenly get a really rich and warm chamber to play in.
schweeeeet :D
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jun 13, 2003 12:55 am
Jues-
In my Cakewalk there's alot of presets which I tweak out but I see nothing called Chamber. Could be called by another name? Maybe Hall ?
I'm getting comfortable now just going in without presets and setting decay,dry/wet,hp-lp filters, echo type, and getting where I want to be. So would the generic HALL preset I have give me a clue to a starting point for "chamber " reverb?
thanks
Jun 13, 2003 03:55 am "chamber" will have a fraction of the tail that "hall" has.
Does Cakewalk Home Studio support DX effects?
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Jun 13, 2003 02:20 pm cakewalk is DX
I use anwiedasoft (sp?) reverb light ... but I still avoid reverb when possible :(
however with my megar experience roomtone is huge with vocals... my cheap fix is to record in as large a room as possible with as little "echoing" as possible with my Rode NT1 6" to a foot away from the face and about eye height (sometimes with a t-shirt as a heavy duty pop filter... I do a number of indie hardcore bands)
the outboard compressor is a must if there is a lot of volume fluxuation during the performance...
though yesterday I decided to try my hand at a DIY tube preamp before I blow $2000 on an avalon... :)
mic place menbt is also important... as the tendency it to close mic everything as it's easy but it greatly increases the ammount of bass in a recording which can make it sound further away or weaker
Jun 13, 2003 04:08 pm Another note about reverb usage. To avoid things getting muddy, keep your decay times down to a minimum. Any more than about 1.5 seconds can start getting pretty crazy unless you're going after a specific effect that needs the long decay. Also, use the predelay setting to allow your vocal track to maintain it's crispness and clarity while still adding that needed "space" in the track. The difference between having no predelay at all and having 20+ miliseconds of predelay can be dramatic!
AlanfcMember
Since: Mar 13, 2003
Jul 01, 2003 05:27 pm
OK I'm getting closer in my search... I think for now a pre-amp for my vocals is step #1.
I have been learning about "warm" preamps and others, and I think I want "warm". I found one reference to the dbx 376 as having that quality. Anyone have any experience or advice on a preamp for vocals that will fit into the "warm" category?. I want it to have EQ and Compression. I'd like to keep it under $1000.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated
momenMember
Since: Jul 31, 2003
Jul 31, 2003 02:52 pm Hi alanfc, yea i think a rode ntk valve mic with a focusrite voicemaster pro is the main deal and outside a studio the best you can get, in the UK thats about $1200 in your money an i reckon you can get it a lot cheaper in the good ol US of A,what do you guys think of NTs Waves software comp etc,how do they compare to Focusrite,i have the lot but well do i need hardware,jim
Jul 31, 2003 06:52 pm Here's a question: If you don't need any volume boost, but you have a nice pre-amp, should you decrease the signal coming from the mic so you can boost it with the pre-amp and get the "sound" of the pre amp, or keep the mic at the same level to keep the noise level as low as possible?
Jul 31, 2003 07:53 pm isn't the gains on the preamp what gives you your mics level? aren't they one and the same?
generally you want to have the strongest signal at *every* step of the way to ensure the cleanest signal when it gets to the other end. someone on here called it "gain staging"
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 01, 2003 06:07 am I'm pretty sure that every condensor mic (no matter how good) will need a strong level of pre-amping before the signal is usable. Dynamic mic's often don't, but then, dynamic mics are dynamic mic's :)
jues.
Aug 04, 2003 09:07 pm Well, with my Delta 44 inputs on -10, and my Groove Tubes Tube GT66 on 0db output mode, I don't need to use any boost at all. When I record drums with it, I actually have to switch it to -10 so that it doesn't peak like mad.
It's my dynamic mics that I need to boost. I mean, they're less sensitive after all, right? The GT66 would peak like crazy if I added any more gain...
Aug 05, 2003 09:52 am Oh, and to continue my last post... I have my mixer's faders at 0db, no more, no less. So that shouldn't be cutting or boosting the signal, right?
Aug 06, 2003 01:09 pm porpoise, that's right, 0dB on your mixer's main outs shouldn't cut or boost, but remember that you mixer is outputting at +4. By setting your delta 44's inputs to accept +4, you can push the mixer a little hotter and have a great signal to noise ratio. I too leave my mixer at 0dB (unity gain), but i can safely let my mixer's dB meters peak above 0.
i'd love to hear jues or dB's or Noize's (or anyone else that knows what they're talking about) take on this, and what is the ideal gains to send from mixer to soudcard etc
Aug 06, 2003 03:15 pm The way I look at it, my signal-to-noise ratio should be better, but then again, you bring up a good point. I could be wrong. Yeah, nobody talks much about the whole -10, +4 thing. It's rather confusing. Then again, is my mixer really putting out +4? I'm not so sure about that. I've never really considered how I could push the signal too high on my mixer, or leave it too low. Hmmm... Let's discuss! :-)
Aug 06, 2003 07:47 pm you've got the mx802a right? that's the same one i've got. I'm pretty sure all professional grade (and i'm not saying Behringer is the best, but you get the idea) equipment uses the accepted +4dB standard. It's really important that 0dB (unity gain) on every piece of equipment is the same so that each device in the chain can carry the hottest signal without distorting anywhere. If a manufacturer sways from that standard, you're bound to have problems maintaining a nice strong signal with the minimal noise that is ideal for recording/performing.
i too would like to hear a professional opinion on the subject of +4dB vs. -10dB
Aug 07, 2003 01:31 pm I see... Yes, professional opinion would be nice. (Hint, hint) :-)
Aug 09, 2003 11:12 am Anybody?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Aug 09, 2003 09:06 pm Sorry.
Prorp, I think you are doing something wrong (with the signal chain). You should go:
MICROPHONE -> PREAMP -> SOUNDCARD
Your MX602a should be nowhere in that signalchain, the preamp bypasses that stage.
jues.
Aug 10, 2003 04:43 pm Yay Jues! :-) Thanks for responding!
I don't actually have an external pre-amp, and if I did, I would like to use it with the mixer too (So that I could mix down multiple channels before going onto a track). I actually have the EURORACK MX1604A, not the MX602 (I finally looked it up). I have it set up as if I had 4 subgroups to the 4 Delta inputs. (Don't ask me how I did this... I have my ways :-)
So right now I'm using my MX pre-amps, when necessary, which isn't very often at all (Hardly ever). So I have my Mic outputting 0db, my mixer set to I don't know what, my compressor on -10 mode, and my delta 44 inputs set to -10. So is that good? I mean, isn't it good to not have to boost the signal anywhere...?
Boy, I used a lot of parantheseeseseses in that post. (I can't spell that word...)
